Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?

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**sebster**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Why specifically Syria? Why do you insist that we intervene there, but not the countless other hot spots and dictators around the world?

I already explained this. Syria collapsed in to civil war. Normally you don't want to go supporting resistance movements even when the government is despicable, because even a very bad government is preferable to the chaos of civil war. But if a country is already in civil war, it makes sense to back your preferred winner.

Zimbabwe also has a terrible government, which tolerated/ignored. Were the country to collapse in to civil war, then you'd see aid being given to the preferred faction.

**Wyrmalla**

The particular joke with Syria was that the Russians repeatedly vetoed resolutions to send troops there. Then when they wanted to do so they just did it. However, whilst those resolutions were to remove the Syrian government, they chose to back it. Youknow, the one barrel bombing its own people.

Meanwhile the West got involved and started to make a difference, just with the government still in power and beginning to regain more control. Then came the Iraqis and Turks, who decided wiping out one of the West's only allies in the conflict was a good idea. The UN did vote on telling the Turks to go back to their side of the border at least, not like they're going to follow it though. They've made up with the Russians also, which is a pity, as they could have had a "who's the most oppressive regime" off and blown each other up instead.

Currently in that war we have the Russians threatening to attack the Americans after the Americans said they were going to continue their bombing campaign. Besides those comments about the Russians going nuclear because someone stood up to them. As a result of recent events, and the West still being against the Assad regime. That and its only been a few weeks since that failed Russian false flag operation which had them lose something like 250 soldiers (in the guise of "mercenaries"). They attacked a position which they thought were rebels. Call it bad intelligence, but it was manned by American soldiers, who proceeded to blow the hell out of the aggressors (who weren't "Russians" just private contractors, so fair game).

I still advocate backing the Kurds. Its not like many of the other factions are our friends there. The Turks are a nominal ally at best there days, besides being a dictatorship and moving towards the Russians. The Assad government's only still in power due to the Russian backing, and their list of war crimes against their own people has lost them any credibility on the world stage (it was cracking down on protests which started this whole war). The various rebel factions are fast becoming irrelevant in the scheme of things due to the other factions, or have been forced to pick a side. ISIS is ISIS, and not doing well regardless. Meanwhile there's always Israel, who're continuing their campaign of "we don't care who you are, get near the border and you're going to be a red smear", along with planning to build a wall to stop any extremists which the Assad regime aren't in the habit of fighting when they're moving towards the Israeli border. The Iraqis have their own problems, and besides being concerned over ISIS moving in on their territory, seem to care more about putting down the Kurds (is it a meme in the ME that the sky could be falling down, but that's still not your main concern if there's a minority people wanting self determination?).

**Wyrmalla**

As expected....

UK calls death of Russian businessman Glushkov a homicide

LONDON (AP) — British police said Friday they have launched a murder investigation into the death of London-based Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov after an autopsy revealed that he died from compression to the neck.

Counterterrorism detectives are leading the case “because of the associations Mr. Glushkov is believed to have had,” the Metropolitan Police force said.

Glushkov, 68, was an associate of Boris Berezovsky, a Russian oligarch and strong Kremlin critic who died under disputed circumstances in 2013.

Glushkov was found dead at his south London home on Monday. His death came a week after former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia were left critically ill from nerve agent poisoning in the city of Salisbury.

The London police force said “at this stage there is nothing to suggest any link (from Glushkov) to the attempted murders in Salisbury,” and they said there was no evidence that Glushkov has been poisoned.

British authorities say the substance that poisoned the Skripals is a powerful form of a Russian-developed nerve agent known as Novichok. A British police officer who responded to the attack in Salisbury is in serious condition, and police say 131 people may have come into contact with the nerve agent.

Britain has accused the Russian government of responsibility for Skripals’ poisoning and British Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said Friday it’s “overwhelmingly likely” that Russian President Vladimir Putin himself ordered the attack. Putin’s spokesman has denounced the comment as “shocking and inexcusable.”

U.K. police say “there are no wider public health concerns” around the investigation into Glushkov’s death.

In light of the Salisbury attack, British police are looking again at the deaths of more than a dozen Russians in Britain, including Berezovsky.

After his death in 2013, an inquest failed to determine whether Berezovsky had killed himself or died from foul play.

Glushkov, a longtime associate of the oligarch, had worked for various Berezovsky enterprises including the car factory AvtoVAZ and flagship Russian airline Aeroflot.

He was arrested in 1999 and put on trial for embezzling $7 million from Aeroflot. In 2004, he was sentenced to three years and three months in prison, but released because of time served.

Russian media reported that Glushkov was granted political asylum in Britain in 2010.

In 2017, a Moscow court reviewed Glushkov’s case and sentenced him in absentia to eight years for reportedly embezzling more than $122 million from Aeroflot.

Last year, Glushkov appeared on a list published by the Russian Embassy in London of Russian citizens wanted for serious crimes whom the U.K. had refused to extradite.

It said Russia had sought his extradition in 2015 “for committing a number of severe financial offences on the territory of Russia,” but the British government refused.

**djones520**

I wonder if the British government is going to start taking steps to protect some of their intel sources after these "unrelated accidents".

**Wyrmalla**

Russian spy poisoning: chemist says non-state actor couldn't carry out attack

Vil Mirzayanov, who worked with the chemical novichok under Soviets for 30 years, says even he would not know how to weaponize it

The Russian chemist who revealed the existence of the novichok family of chemical agents to the world has dismissed the notion that a non-state actor could be behind the poisoning of former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Salisbury, England, earlier this month.

Vil Mirzayanov, 83, said the chemical was too dangerous for anyone but a “high-level senior scientist” to handle and that even he – who worked for 30 years inside the secret military installation where novichok was developed and gained extensive personal experience in handling the agent – would not know how to weaponize it.

He said he did not see how a criminal organization or other non-state group could pull off such an attack.

“It’s very, very tough stuff,” Mirzayanov told the Guardian at his home in New Jersey, where he has lived in exile since 1996. “I don’t believe it.

“You need a very high-qualified professional scientist,” he continued. “Because it is dangerous stuff. Extremely dangerous. You can kill yourself. First of all you have to have a very good shield, a very particular container. And after that to weaponize it – weaponize it is impossible without high technical equipment. It’s impossible to imagine.”

Skripals poisoning: what we know so far
Read more
The British government has announced sanctions against Moscow over the poisoning of Skripal, and the foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, said on Friday it was “overwhelmingly likely” that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, personally took the decision to use the nerve agent against the ex-spy.

But the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, said on Wednesday that the chemical agent identified in the Salisbury attack could have been used by someone else other than the Russian state, and a Corbyn spokesperson suggested a “mafia-like group” or “oligarchic interests in London” might have been responsible.

Mirzayanov said those theories did not make sense owing to the facilities and multiple layers of expertise that would be required to prepare such an attack.

Chemists synthesizing the agent would have to be working somewhere with an antidote close at hand, he said, and they would have to be working with someone who knew how to weaponize it, which, he emphasized, he himself did not.

“We had no idea how to weaponize it,” he said. “We don’t know because it’s not our business.”

Weaponization would also need to take place at a different facility from the one where the agent was made, he said.

Mirzayanov said the perpetrator of the attack must have been the Russian state.

“No one country has these capabilities like Russia, because Russia invented, tested and weaponized Novichok,” he said.

The theory that the agent was stolen for use in a crime was weak for similar reasons, Mirzayanov said.

Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate - sent direct to you
Read more
“If you steal it, and after that, what to do with that?” he said. “You cannot weaponize, no exceptions, you cannot weaponize that.”

Mirzayanov further said that there was probably no current stockpile of novichok to steal, because it has a limited shelf life and the preferred form would be a binary version in which two relatively benign, non-banned substances were mixed to produce novichok.

“The final product, in storage, after one year is already losing 2%, 3%. The next year more, and the next year more. In 10-15 years, it’s no longer effective.”

Mirzayanov worked inside the secret military installation where novichok was developed; his job was testing the surrounding air and soil for traces of novichok.

When he realized that Moscow’s military was lying about the possible applications of novichok and that the program risked undermining global chemical weapons bans, he said, he decided to expose it, publishing his first account in the Russian press in 1991.

He was arrested in 1994 and charged with divulging state secrets. Intervention by the US government, the Soros foundation and activists including his wife Gale, an American, secured his asylum in the United States.

Mirzayanov thinks the Salisbury attack was performed with a binary version of the agent brought through customs and automatically mixed at the time of the attack.

“I believe they brought binary version,” Mirzayanov said. “It’s two ampules, small containers, like a big bullet, put them together in a spray or something, and after that, some mechanism which is mixing them, a couple seconds and after that you’re shooting.”

Mirzayanov said the danger for people in the area of the attack before or afterward would depend on the dosage used. “It’s extremely poisonous, about 10 times more potent than VX gas,” he said. “It could touch any skin and in a couple minutes would take effect.”

The first sign of exposure is a shrinkage of pupils and darkening of vision, he said. “After that vomiting, [difficulty] breathing and convulsions.”

An antidote can delay or partially reverse the effects of the poison but would not necessarily save the life of the victim, he said.

Mirzayanov said he did not feel fear for himself or his family in speaking about novichok and Russia.

“It may be a little bit crazy, but when I decide something, I’m going exactly to do it, without any distraction, to some goal,” he said. “I’m a very determined person. Because of that, if I’ve decided, all of it is gone, any fear – I don’t feel any fear.”

**Orlanth**

Disciple of Fate wrote:

What do you mean by the "better option for NATO expansion is in the Baltic"? The Baltic States are already in NATO.

Exactly, little time was lost either. Ukraine has been trying to join NATO for a while.

**Co'tor Shas**

Orlanth wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:

What do you mean by the "better option for NATO expansion is in the Baltic"? The Baltic States are already in NATO.

Exactly, little time was lost either. Ukraine has been trying to join NATO for a while.

And judging by what Russia has done, it's no real surprise.

**Kilkrazy**

The fact that the Ukraine has not been admitted to NATO is partly because the West sees the Ukraine as a legitimate part of the Russian sphere of influence, and does not wish to intrude. The Baltic States and Poland historically are independent countries which the Soviet Union invaded and occupied.

The fact that NATO expanded to some places and not others is confirmation that it is a defensive alliance, not an aggressive one as claimed by the Russia that failed to be invaded by NATO during Russia's terrible weakness of the 1990s, a time at which NATO members scaled down their armament spending in response to the lack of threat from the former Soviet Union.

TL/DR: When the Russian government complains about NATO they are talking bollocks.

**Howard A Treesong**

Predictably Russia is expelling 23 of our diplomats now. Funny how they they maintain this attitude as if they are the ones wronged in all this, but a state based on chest beating propaganda can’t exactly back down.

**Kilkrazy**

I regard it as a positive sign. If Russia wanted to escalate the situation they would expel more than 23.

Russia can't expel fewer, because they are Russia and don't take no gak from anyone. (As you say.)

**godardc**

I have never seen so much russiaphobia before. They are the ones protecting the world by killing terrorist, at least show them some respect because they die for us all.
And now what ? Everytime someone die, it is going to be Russia's fault ? Come on...
Just before the FIFA world cup in Russia and the election ? It is pretty obvious that the UK governement, as usual, lies and try to manipulate its own people and maybe the Russian living abroad.
How funny that in 24 hours (yes just 24h) my own government went from (official statment): there is no proof, and until we see proof, no comment" to "It is Russia and it is despicable and we should punish the Russian".

Assad didn't and don't barrel bomb its own people... He bombs rebels and islamist terrorist, like, you know, the ones killing people because they are gay or kissed in public. Good guys for sure !

Do you really believe that in Japan, some guys from a crazy cult of death did manage to produce and use sarin gaz, but a non state actor couldn't make and use just a little dose of this toxin used on the poor russian guy and his daughter ?

**Kilkrazy**

You obviously weren't around in the 1970s to 80s, when everyone in the western world lived in the shadow of Soviet power with a proven history of aggression and repression of dissent.

**godardc**

Of course, but now we are in 2018. And just because some country that doesn't even exist anymore did someting wrong and bad 40 years ago, doesn't mean that Russia did it.
- they have no motive
-it is really not the good time to do it
- they get nothing from it
- they have almost no alibi

Only a fool would do it, and I don't think Putin to be a fool

**Witzkatz**

As more eloquent people have said before me, depending on what you view as Putin's possible motive, it might be exactly the right time, and they don't want a full alibi, because they want to send a message.

Really, whoever decided to use Novichok instead of some less exotic weapons, from a 9mm to some other chemical weapon - he damn well knew what would happen after this, I think. This is almost as exotic as dipping people in liquid gold and leaving them in a hotel room.

**Disciple of Fate**

godardc wrote:
I have never seen so much russiaphobia before. They are the ones protecting the world by killing terrorist, at least show them some respect because they die for us all.
And now what ? Everytime someone die, it is going to be Russia's fault ? Come on...
Just before the FIFA world cup in Russia and the election ? It is pretty obvious that the UK governement, as usual, lies and try to manipulate its own people and maybe the Russian living abroad.
How funny that in 24 hours (yes just 24h) my own government went from (official statment): there is no proof, and until we see proof, no comment" to "It is Russia and it is despicable and we should punish the Russian".

Assad didn't and don't barrel bomb its own people... He bombs rebels and islamist terrorist, like, you know, the ones killing people because they are gay or kissed in public. Good guys for sure !

Do you really believe that in Japan, some guys from a crazy cult of death did manage to produce and use sarin gaz, but a non state actor couldn't make and use just a little dose of this toxin used on the poor russian guy and his daughter ?

The truth is Russophobia, truly mighty days for the right.

They aren't the ones protecting the world. The West is fighting the same terrorists. Only we do it without propping up a mass murderer and willingly bombing civilians. How can you respect that?

I guess you think everybody lies but Russia, even with solid proof.

Assad does barrel bomb civilians, his own civilians as he keeps claiming he is the real government. For heaven's sake man he even bombs hospitals and aid convoys. I guess you swallowed Russian and Syrian propaganda on this hook, line and sinker. Your ideas are just out there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godardc wrote:
Of course, but now we are in 2018. And just because some country that doesn't even exist anymore did someting wrong and bad 40 years ago, doesn't mean that Russia did it.
- they have no motive
-it is really not the good time to do it
- they get nothing from it
- they have almost no alibi

Only a fool would do it, and I don't think Putin to be a fool

Except when the fool shot down MH17 and poisoned Litvinenko. Russia enjoys high profile stupidity, this fits right in. As multiple security agencies think too.

**reds8n**

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/cocaine-seized-russian-embassy-buenos-aires-argentina-n850531

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina — Six suspected drug traffickers were arrested after 860 pounds of cocaine were found in the Russian Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina's government said on Thursday.

A former Russian diplomatic official and an Argentine police officer were among those detained

....

Authorities said the drugs have a street value in Russia of about $61 million.

$60M odd eh ?

Blimey.

... the CIA taught them well eh ?

**Steve steveson**

godardc wrote:
I have never seen so much russiaphobia before. They are the ones protecting the world by killing terrorist, at least show them some respect because they die for us all.

What?

And now what ? Everytime someone die, it is going to be Russia's fault ? Come on...

No, only when someone dies, using a weapon only the Russian government would have access to, who was on a “most wanted” list from the Kremlin.

Just before the FIFA world cup in Russia and the election ? It is pretty obvious that the UK governement, as usual, lies and try to manipulate its own people and maybe the Russian living abroad.

Really? It’s the UK government manipulating their people and not the Russian government. Occamas razor comes in to play.

How funny that in 24 hours (yes just 24h) my own government went from (official statment): there is no proof, and until we see proof, no comment" to "It is Russia and it is despicable and we should punish the Russian".

Yes, in those 24 hours that it took for the evidence to be passed between security services.

Assad didn't and don't barrel bomb its own people... He bombs rebels and islamist terrorist, like, you know, the ones killing people because they are gay or kissed in public. Good guys for sure !

Yes he did.

Do you really believe that in Japan, some guys from a crazy cult of death did manage to produce and use sarin gaz, but a non state actor couldn't make and use just a little dose of this toxin used on the poor russian guy and his daughter ?

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

godardc wrote:
Do you really believe that in Japan, some guys from a crazy cult of death did manage to produce and use sarin gaz, but a non state actor couldn't make and use just a little dose of this toxin used on the poor russian guy and his daughter ?

When initial reports were this was sarin I did think it was plausible that the attack could have been from a non-state organisation,

but now it's been shown to be Novichok (spelling?) i'm afraid that it pretty much has to be a Russia, and given what it is ordered from very high up

**godardc**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
godardc wrote:
I have never seen so much russiaphobia before. They are the ones protecting the world by killing terrorist, at least show them some respect because they die for us all.
And now what ? Everytime someone die, it is going to be Russia's fault ? Come on...
Just before the FIFA world cup in Russia and the election ? It is pretty obvious that the UK governement, as usual, lies and try to manipulate its own people and maybe the Russian living abroad.
How funny that in 24 hours (yes just 24h) my own government went from (official statment): there is no proof, and until we see proof, no comment" to "It is Russia and it is despicable and we should punish the Russian".

Assad didn't and don't barrel bomb its own people... He bombs rebels and islamist terrorist, like, you know, the ones killing people because they are gay or kissed in public. Good guys for sure !

Do you really believe that in Japan, some guys from a crazy cult of death did manage to produce and use sarin gaz, but a non state actor couldn't make and use just a little dose of this toxin used on the poor russian guy and his daughter ?

The truth is Russophobia, truly mighty days for the right.

They aren't the ones protecting the world. The West is fighting the same terrorists. Only we do it without propping up a mass murderer and willingly bombing civilians. How can you respect that?

I guess you think everybody lies but Russia, even with solid proof.

Assad does barrel bomb civilians, his own civilians as he keeps claiming he is the real government. For heaven's sake man he even bombs hospitals and aid convoys. I guess you swallowed Russian and Syrian propaganda on this hook, line and sinker. Your ideas are just out there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godardc wrote:
Of course, but now we are in 2018. And just because some country that doesn't even exist anymore did someting wrong and bad 40 years ago, doesn't mean that Russia did it.
- they have no motive
-it is really not the good time to do it
- they get nothing from it
- they have almost no alibi

Only a fool would do it, and I don't think Putin to be a fool

Except when the fool shot down MH17 and poisoned Litvinenko. Russia enjoys high profile stupidity, this fits right in. As multiple security agencies think too.

He is the real government (who else, if not him ?), but the people he fights are not his citizens: they don't even have the same flag. They seceded from their own country. Would you say that the Confederates were citizens of the Union ? I would not.
He may bombs hospital (I haven't even heard about this but it probably happens, I agree), but:
1) it is war. Sorry but wars are horrible, horrible things
2) and you KNOW IT, terrorist hide amongst children and civilians and hospitals. This is what they want you to think: "the people killing the terrorists killed one child ! They are monsters ! Let the terrorists who killed thousands children and women alive !" They use your emotionality against you, stay rational.

I don't think everybody lies but Russia, but I think our governements may have an agenda. You know, exactly like all those women supposedly raped by Trump that never ever even talked about this, but the minute he ran for the Presidency they sudainly woke up...
And yes, I am aware the russian did kill some guys before. This is exactly why I think it is not the Russian this time, it is so easy to make freeble-minded people believe this just because the two murders are alike... This is the only proof we have. Where are the proofs if they are so strong ?

The formula for the poison has been publicly available on Amazon for years, seriously everyone in the world have access to it... For 30$. But only Russia can make it. Sure. Let's believe it.

So, how has the West fought terrorism since Bush retired ?
We keept protecting afghanistan, that's good.
We destroyed Libya, not good.
We let ISIS in iraqi and Syria.
We gave money and weapons to "moderate" terrorists in Syria and Iraq because reasons.
We didn't help to destroy them except some air stikes. We did it for years, nothing happened.

Russia came, fight the terrorists, and they won. It took them like what, one or two years ? You seriously think that the USA alone couln't have done it faster ? So, the whole West doing almost nothing for years is criminal.
And you all know how much I love The West here.

**Disciple of Fate**

godardc wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
godardc wrote:
I have never seen so much russiaphobia before. They are the ones protecting the world by killing terrorist, at least show them some respect because they die for us all.
And now what ? Everytime someone die, it is going to be Russia's fault ? Come on...
Just before the FIFA world cup in Russia and the election ? It is pretty obvious that the UK governement, as usual, lies and try to manipulate its own people and maybe the Russian living abroad.
How funny that in 24 hours (yes just 24h) my own government went from (official statment): there is no proof, and until we see proof, no comment" to "It is Russia and it is despicable and we should punish the Russian".

Assad didn't and don't barrel bomb its own people... He bombs rebels and islamist terrorist, like, you know, the ones killing people because they are gay or kissed in public. Good guys for sure !

Do you really believe that in Japan, some guys from a crazy cult of death did manage to produce and use sarin gaz, but a non state actor couldn't make and use just a little dose of this toxin used on the poor russian guy and his daughter ?

The truth is Russophobia, truly mighty days for the right.

They aren't the ones protecting the world. The West is fighting the same terrorists. Only we do it without propping up a mass murderer and willingly bombing civilians. How can you respect that?

I guess you think everybody lies but Russia, even with solid proof.

Assad does barrel bomb civilians, his own civilians as he keeps claiming he is the real government. For heaven's sake man he even bombs hospitals and aid convoys. I guess you swallowed Russian and Syrian propaganda on this hook, line and sinker. Your ideas are just out there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godardc wrote:
Of course, but now we are in 2018. And just because some country that doesn't even exist anymore did someting wrong and bad 40 years ago, doesn't mean that Russia did it.
- they have no motive
-it is really not the good time to do it
- they get nothing from it
- they have almost no alibi

Only a fool would do it, and I don't think Putin to be a fool

Except when the fool shot down MH17 and poisoned Litvinenko. Russia enjoys high profile stupidity, this fits right in. As multiple security agencies think too.

He is the real government (who else, if not him ?), but the people he fights are not his citizens: they don't even have the same flag. They seceded from their own country. Would you say that the Confederates were citizens of the Union ? I would not.
He may bombs hospital (I haven't even heard about this but it probably happens, I agree), but:
1) it is war. Sorry but wars are horrible, horrible things
2) and you KNOW IT, terrorist hide amongst children and civilians and hospitals. This is what they want you to think: "the people killing the terrorists killed one child ! They are monsters ! Let the terrorists who killed thousands children and women alive !" They use your emotionality against you, stay rational.

I don't think everybody lies but Russia, but I think our governements may have an agenda. You know, exactly like all those women supposedly raped by Trump that never ever even talked about this, but the minute he ran for the Presidency they sudainly woke up...
And yes, I am aware the russian did kill some guys before. This is exactly why I think it is not the Russian this time, it is so easy to make freeble-minded people believe this just because the two murders are alike... This is the only proof we have. Where are the proofs if they are so strong ?

The formula for the poison has been publicly available on Amazon for years, seriously everyone in the world have access to it... For 30$. But only Russia can make it. Sure. Let's believe it.

So, how has the West fought terrorism since Bush retired ?
We keept protecting afghanistan, that's good.
We destroyed Libya, not good.
We let ISIS in iraqi and Syria.
We gave money and weapons to "moderate" terrorists in Syria and Iraq because reasons.
We didn't help to destroy them except some air stikes. We did it for years, nothing happened.

Russia came, fight the terrorists, and they won. It took them like what, one or two years ? You seriously think that the USA alone couln't have done it faster ? So, the whole West doing almost nothing for years is criminal.
And you all know how much I love The West here.

So everyone not behind Assad lines is a valid target? All those civilians in rebel areas are a-ok to bomb? Really? If the Union started mass killing Confederate civilians like Assad is doing the Union would have a weak claim to be the legitimate governmet. In Syria we have the 'legitimate' government indiscriminatly murdering civilians because they happen to be on the wrong side of the front line.

You haven't heard about Assad targeting hospitals? It was literally major headline news these past years. And no "but", targeting a hospital is a clear war crime. War is war is an empty saying, used by people excusing the worst atrocities that in no way further the war effort. That right there is why Assad is no better than the terrorists he fights, he himself engages in terror tactics. Rationality doesn't demand you bomb hospitals and aid convoys. It does nothing for your war effort.

I'm not going to engage the Trump comment, the reasons have been discussed over and over. So what is the government's agenda? To point the finger at the incredibly likely suspect? Or is it a deep state they killed him themselves kind of agenda. Read the documentation behind the nerve agent used. You seem to be actively avoiding even the articles posted in this thread.

But no, you actually think any idiot with 30 bucks and an Amazon account can make this nerve agent. If it was that easy terrorists would have wiped us all out with nukes by now.

Libya was a mistake, one we should fix. Assad actually helped ISIS thrive, without the Syrian Civil War ISIS would have never been in the position to take over Iraq. No joke, IS in 2011 was defeated, Baghdadi left Iraq and used Syria as a way out. Assad being a stupid dictator gave IS exactly what it needed. Then the West had to beat IS in Syria, while Assad and Putin were busy bombing the more moderate rebels first.

That's right, Russia and Assad were murdering the same rebels the West was arming to fight ISIS. You know who captured the IS strongholds in Syria? US backed rebels, not Putin or Assad. You seem to have a very warped perspective.

**Ketara**

godardc wrote:

And you all know how much I love The West here.

Do tell. I'd hate to get the wrong impression from everything you've written so far.

**Orlanth**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Predictably Russia is expelling 23 of our diplomats now. Funny how they they maintain this attitude as if they are the ones wronged in all this, but a state based on chest beating propaganda can’t exactly back down.

Its an attitude of contempt. The Russian press has been making taunting remarks about how traitors residing in the UK will disappear or meet accidents.

They are working on a bully mentality, very much like the hit man who walks openly down a street guns someone down in broad daylight and expects nobody to see anything and to flatly deny involvement later.

**Kilkrazy**

I would be interested to hear why Godarc hates the West.

I don't think the West hates Russia. I certainly don't.

**Frazzled**

Techpriestsupport wrote:
Don't you get it? Putin is a murderer. For someone like him tge point of killing is killing. He may have done this because he had a bad day, he just hadn't ordered a murder in a while, he was just reminded of this guy.

NO.
It is a carefully planned warning to dissidents, traitors, spies, and enemies of the state: It says to them : WE WILL GET YOU.

Quite brilliant actually.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

godardc wrote:
I have never seen so much russiaphobia before.

Um...really? Britain has been a rival to the since what, the 1800s?

**Steve steveson**

Britain had a very good relationship with Russia up until 1918. Yes, we fought the odd war with them before then, but then that’s basically what countries did before WW1. Then Russia went all insular with the rise of communism and hasn’t really moved on since. To be honest my feeling is that much has not changed since the USSR in the way the Russian state thinks and acts.

**Mr. Burning**

Steve steveson wrote:
Britain had a very good relationship with Russia up until 1918. Yes, we fought the odd war with them before then, but then that’s basically what countries did before WW1. Then Russia went all insular with the rise of communism and hasn’t really moved on since. To be honest my feeling is that much has not changed since the USSR in the way the Russian state thinks and acts.

The great game predates 1918 by a good margin. The fear of Russia invading India and Russian fear of Britain ouflanking it caused a great deal of consternation, British press was frequently full of anti tsarist and anti Russian sentiment.

**Mario**

Disciple of Fate wrote:They aren't the ones protecting the world. The West is fighting the same terrorists. Only we do it without … willingly bombing civilians.

I wouldn't go that far. We have nice euphemism like collateral damage but the end result is similar. It might not be the war your were talking about in your comments but read up on how drone bombings in Iraq/Afghanistan changed with the new US president (not that it was "not bad" under the ones before) and it's still about a lot of civilians dying in a war they had no influence on. And ideas like re-classifying Iraqi males over a certain age as enemy combatants so the numbers look better doesn't fill me with confidence that protecting civilians is some sort of main priority. That's "protecting the world" for a certain subset of "world". On a comparative scale of "bad things happening" I don't know which I would classify as worse, just ruthless bombing or "not as ruthlessly bombing but with some extra consideration for how civilians deaths will appear in your own media because it's bad publicity". Both are equally bad if you're the person who's coincidentally sitting near a target.

**BaronIveagh**

Getting back to the OP Novichok being pretty rare, Russia is now claiming that the entire operation was smuggled out of the country and they have no idea where it's being made now, accusing Sweden, the Chechs, and a variety of other non-Russian aligned actors with it.

**Disciple of Fate**

Mario wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:They aren't the ones protecting the world. The West is fighting the same terrorists. Only we do it without … willingly bombing civilians.
I wouldn't go that far. We have nice euphemism like collateral damage but the end result is similar. It might not be the war your were talking about in your comments but read up on how drone bombings in Iraq/Afghanistan changed with the new US president (not that it was "not bad" under the ones before) and it's still about a lot of civilians dying in a war they had no influence on. And ideas like re-classifying Iraqi males over a certain age as enemy combatants so the numbers look better doesn't fill me with confidence that protecting civilians is some sort of main priority. That's "protecting the world" for a certain subset of "world". On a comparative scale of "bad things happening" I don't know which I would classify as worse, just ruthless bombing or "not as ruthlessly bombing but with some extra consideration for how civilians deaths will appear in your own media because it's bad publicity". Both are equally bad if you're the person who's coincidentally sitting near a target.

You seem to seriously misunderstand. There is a difference between willingly targeting civilians and collateral damage. I know plenty about the drone strike program and its many many mistakes. But classifying civilians casualties differently as the article talks about and aiming for civilians is an entirely different matter. While one is seriously crossing the line of distasteful, it doesn't have to be a war crime, while the other clearly is.

I also didn't say the West is protecting the world if you read what I say. I said the West fights the same terrorists Russia is 'protecting' (his words) the world from. The idea that they are equally bad is just misleading, as the overall consequences certainly aren't. Your comparison doesn't work at all. We're talking about the difference between knowingly hitting hospitals and aid convoys over and over and trying to hit insurgents with as much intel as possible while still making serious mistakes. I know the OODA loop gets joked about a lot, but at least the West has an OODA loop instead of Assad and Putin's D loop.

For the record. I have argued against how Trump pursued the war against IS because his insistence on speed cost too many lives, even on this board.

**Orlanth**

Mr. Burning wrote:
Steve steveson wrote:
Britain had a very good relationship with Russia up until 1918. Yes, we fought the odd war with them before then, but then that’s basically what countries did before WW1. Then Russia went all insular with the rise of communism and hasn’t really moved on since. To be honest my feeling is that much has not changed since the USSR in the way the Russian state thinks and acts.

The great game predates 1918 by a good margin. The fear of Russia invading India and Russian fear of Britain ouflanking it caused a great deal of consternation, British press was frequently full of anti tsarist and anti Russian sentiment.

Kipling was involved, and it shows in his writings. The UK has had an organised intelligence community for a lot longer than other modern nations. Samuel Johnson is credited with developing the UK intelligence agency system still in operation today. Every civilisation raised spies, as individuals or small networks, whether gentleman travellers, rakes or knaves, but for a considerable time only the UK had fully formed intelligence agencies, and they kept that piece of expertise to themselves. The first rival to fully cotton onto this was Bismark's Germany, and they lost no time in catching up, by the time of the First World War the Kaisers intelligence services were the largest in the world, and probably the best funded. Perhaps the last was the USA which didn't have any intelligence cadre until the 1930's and it wasnt properly developed as a credible intelligence cadre until the 1940's. Hoover's idiocy has much to blame for that.