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 Crimson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.

I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.

I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.

Appreciated. That's a cool explanation of his future telling. It also fits well with the metaphor of the "narrow path of survival" that he is often described as "steering" and "guiding" humanity through.

The Heresy being sped up from what Emps wanted is also supported by The Cabal, they knew of the Heresy well in advance (another thing that almost guarantees that Emps did too even without other confirmation), but they then had to rush their approach to the Alpha Legion by like a decade because some unforseen influence of Chaos had sped it up. I'm not sure if it's ever hinted at what this particular thing was that sped up the coming of the Heresy, or if it just sailed over my head while reading. Any ideas?

Interesting opinion on Magnus wrecking the Golden throne being the major divergence that he had to steer back on course from. During the council of Nikea, it was very much expressed that the Emperor did NOT want to be doing this, and that played a direct hand in what came next, so you may very well be right. However, I imagine there was numerous ways it could have gone, and that the Emperor always included for himself to be taken out of the picture in some manner (the plan falls apart if he is still around and fighting, loyal primarchs would just be like "uhhhhh... we are we out here fighting our ass off in this war that you are not helping us win?", hence why he basically fed himself to Horus before evaporating him), and that Magnus's role was as a back-up for the Throne in case one of these paths involved the Emperor's death. Read "The Board is Set", it explains that there is a BUNCH of ways it could have played out once we got to that point - the board WAS set, and every involved player's (Emps, each of the Chaos Gods, Cabal, anyone else who had knowledge of the coming Heresy and the influence to affect it) goal at that point was just to play for the best possible outcome for themselves.

BrianDavion wrote:
I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...

 Irbis wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...

Exactly, the civil war wasn't to see them killed, it was to see them fighting each other, MAJOR difference.

 Irbis wrote:

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...

I have to say this is assuming that the Emperor thought humanity could survive if they WON the civil war, I think what other posters are saying is that the Emperor only saw humanities survival if the civil war essentially never ended, as is basically has. The fact that the Cabal saw humanity being destroyed if Horus won OR lost basically reinforces this idea. Sometimes you can't play to win, you can just make sure the other guy doesn't win either. If survival of the species is the sole goal then so far so good.

 Irbis wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...

I'm not saying it's canon that it was indeed the PLAN Irbis, just that "the emperor deliberatly took steps to provoke a civil war among the primarichs" is something that ahs been outright said to be the case. weather or not Malchador was telling the truth or simply bullshitting someone so they died content, is not known, but it's an idea that has been floated in the stories.

In other words this isn't just some fan theory with nothing to back it up

 SHUPPET wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.

I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.

Appreciated. That's a cool explanation of his future telling. It also fits well with the metaphor of the "narrow path of survival" that he is often described as "steering" and "guiding" humanity through.

That's... less a metaphor and more just a bit they copied directly from Dune... the God-Emperor as his 'Golden Path.'

Much like the war against thinking machines. And the original concept of space marines, as drug addicted hardened survivors psychopaths with hard wired mental programming (aping the Sardaukar)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.

I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.

He can protect some souls, like when he resurrected Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot.

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.

I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.

He can protect some souls, like when he resurrected Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot.

what he can do in 40k after his assencion to the golden throne and ten thousand years of worship, and what he can do as a physical flesh and blood man are likely VERY differant things

BrianDavion wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.

I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

As for how much the Emperor can see, the emperor himself has answered that in Master of Mankind he compared it to standing on the shore and seeing an island in the distance. You know the island is there, you have an idea of the rough path needed to sail to get there, but what you CAN'T see are the rocks under the water the deadly fast currents, and the other hazards sitting just under your field of view, often until it's too late.

He can protect some souls, like when he resurrected Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot.

what he can do in 40k after his assencion to the golden throne and ten thousand years of worship, and what he can do as a physical flesh and blood man are likely VERY differant things

He forced the Word Bearers to kneel.


Sight returned, banishing the grotesque feeling of helplessness. Such emotion was anathema, prickling at Argel Tal’s skin with a thousand insect legs. He managed to look through his dimmed visor, seeing a towering figure deep in a corona of agonising white light. Around the figure, cloaked and gold-armoured warriors hefted unique spears with practiced ease. Each one was the size of an Astartes, and no Astartes could fail to recognise them.

‘Custodes,’ he managed to speak through teeth gritted at the light’s intensity.

‘It’s…’ Xaphen stammered. ‘It’s the…’

‘I know who it is,’ Argel Tal exhaled the words through clenched teeth. And that’s when the voice hit him, hit them all, in a wave of invisible force.

+Kneel+ it whispered with the power of a hammer to the forehead. There was no resisting. Muscles acted instantly, no matter that many hearts fought not to obey. Argel Tal was one of them. This was not fealty, nor worship, nor service. This was slavery, and his instincts rebelled at the enforced devotion even as he obeyed it.

One hundred thousand Word Bearers kneeled in the dust of the perfect city, rendered prone by Imperial decree. A Legion was on its knees.




And here.


"+LORGAR+

The voice came with a wall of pressure now, dense and all too tactile. It pounded into Argel Tal like a miasma of engine wash, heating his armour and throwing him to the ground. Around him, he could see his brothers sent sprawling, their armour skidding across the dust. Defiant in the cyclone of unseen energy, scrolls of scripture ripping from his armour, Lorgar raised his hand to point at his father.

'You are a god. Say the words and end the lie.'

The Emperor shook his head, not in defeat, but calm defiance.

'You are blind, my son. You cling to ancient perceptions, and endanger us all with them. Let this end, Lorgar. Let this end with you heeding my words.'

The psychic wind died with a peal of thunder. Lorgar stood where he was, trembling for reasons his warriors couldn't discern. Blood ran from one ear, running in a slow trail down his tattooed neck.

I am listening, father,' he said."





This is by no means the best psychic feat in 40k, but its an example.




And he granted his power and immortality to the guardians of the Void Dragon in Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum.


Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.

utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand, forcing an entire legion to kneel? granting a shard of his power and long life to another human? both are mere parlor tricks compared to protecting the sum total of all human souls from being devoured by the warp.

BrianDavion wrote:
utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand, forcing an entire legion to kneel? granting a shard of his power and long life to another human? both are mere parlor tricks compared to protecting the sum total of all human souls from being devoured by the warp.

The Emperor can only protect some souls.

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand, forcing an entire legion to kneel? granting a shard of his power and long life to another human? both are mere parlor tricks compared to protecting the sum total of all human souls from being devoured by the warp.

The Emperor can only protect some souls.

Wait, are you agreeing with him or disagreeing? Because the content of your posts is either irrelevant to, or supportive of, the point he is making, but the tone you're using makes it sound like you disagree.

Onething123456 wrote:
[snip]A whole bunch of fairly irrelevant quotes[/snip]

Okay...deep breath. Dude, just posting a bunch of really long quotes with little to no explanation or further commentary is completely and utterly useless. Quote dumping is not the same as discussing. You've posted a whole bunch of quotes but not actually responded in any meaningful way to the point being discussed. You understand the purpose of this forum, right? If you're directly responding to someone else's points then it makes sense to, y'know, actually address them in some way. You seem to be under the impression your quotes somehow speak for themselves but there are 2 problems with that most of the time:

1. They don't
2. Point 1 notwithstanding, your quotes are so long and obtuse, picking out the point you're trying to get across is pretty much impossible.

What BrianDavion was getting at is that the Emperor's powers are likely very different in the 41st millenium compared to the 31st. It's not even a question of power, rather it's one of influence and focus. Part of the problem with quantifying the Emperor's powers and abilities is that he doesn't actually seem to use them all that often. Maybe that's because he's spending most of his effort keeping the Astronomicon going or maybe his powers, while vast, are not as wdie-ranging as he would have us believe?

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
[snip]A whole bunch of fairly irrelevant quotes[/snip]

Okay...deep breath. Dude, just posting a bunch of really long quotes with little to no explanation or further commentary is completely and utterly useless. Quote dumping is not the same as discussing. You've posted a whole bunch of quotes but not actually responded in any meaningful way to the point being discussed. You understand the purpose of this forum, right? If you're directly responding to someone else's points then it makes sense to, y'know, actually address them in some way. You seem to be under the impression your quotes somehow speak for themselves but there are 2 problems with that most of the time:

1. They don't
2. Point 1 notwithstanding, your quotes are so long and obtuse, picking out the point you're trying to get across is pretty much impossible.

What BrianDavion was getting at is that the Emperor's powers are likely very different in the 41st millenium compared to the 31st. It's not even a question of power, rather it's one of influence and focus. Part of the problem with quantifying the Emperor's powers and abilities is that he doesn't actually seem to use them all that often. Maybe that's because he's spending most of his effort keeping the Astronomicon going or maybe his powers, while vast, are not as wdie-ranging as he would have us believe?

I'm not sure if its worth replying to him at this point to be honest. I've certainly tried, as have many others including yourself. He seems to cherry pick who he replies to and if he's finally backed into a corner like in the last locked thread he goes into full chatroom mode and says he's going to go outside, watch a movie or try to buy 1st edition Rogue Trader for some bizarre reason. The threads hes started have continued in spite of him, since he himself doesn't seem interested in any discussion beyond having people agree with him. He spammed several PM's to me about these random quote blocks before he got the hint I wasn't interested/was confused.

BrianDavion wrote:
utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand, forcing an entire legion to kneel? granting a shard of his power and long life to another human? both are mere parlor tricks compared to protecting the sum total of all human souls from being devoured by the warp.

I thought you were implying something. Sorry about that.

 Irbis wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I wanna step in here a moment and issue some clarifications. the idea that the Emperor actually DID engineer the Heresy is in fact a canon one advanced in the literature. in particular in the story "First Lord of the Imperium" where the story ends BTW wirth Malcador admitting some of what he said where lies to comfort a dying woman (IMHO the big lie was that the emperor will protect your soul in the warp once you die. but opinions will vary) he admitted that the Heresy, occured slightly earlier then expected due to the machanations of chaos, but the Emperor HAD intended for the Legions to eventually turn on each other and destroy one another. It;s IMHO likely that the big "divergance from plan" was Mangus wrecking the golden throne.

It's not really canon. Other story mentions 20 villas with full staff Emperor built for Primarchs on Terra for post-Crusade. Why bother if he wanted to kill them anyway? Also, if you really want civil war (which was idiotic solution in any case, if he no longer needed SM he simply could have ordered second Ullanor parade, then teleport out and have the planet bombed from orbit, no fuss, no collateral damage) why not stack the deck in your favor more? Why not make Sons of Horus all Terran (seeing vast majority of Terran legionnaires remained loyal) but allow to make Chtonian cannibal gangsters into SM (others could be excused as being Primarch homeworlds, Horus was found nearly instantly though)? Why not make Perturabo head architect and palace builder which would instantly make him loyal? Why not kill Angron as liability on the spot? Why not invite Magnus as throne-sitter from the start before he feths something up?

What he did was noticing island on the horizon, a suspicious swirls far left of convenient course, then steering straight for these ignoring wide, open patch ahead...

It's been a while, but weren't the Villas intended to be for the primarchs as they grew up on earth, you before the whole 'whoops dropped 20 babies' incident?

Grimskul wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
[snip]A whole bunch of fairly irrelevant quotes[/snip]

Okay...deep breath. Dude, just posting a bunch of really long quotes with little to no explanation or further commentary is completely and utterly useless. Quote dumping is not the same as discussing. You've posted a whole bunch of quotes but not actually responded in any meaningful way to the point being discussed. You understand the purpose of this forum, right? If you're directly responding to someone else's points then it makes sense to, y'know, actually address them in some way. You seem to be under the impression your quotes somehow speak for themselves but there are 2 problems with that most of the time:

1. They don't
2. Point 1 notwithstanding, your quotes are so long and obtuse, picking out the point you're trying to get across is pretty much impossible.

What BrianDavion was getting at is that the Emperor's powers are likely very different in the 41st millenium compared to the 31st. It's not even a question of power, rather it's one of influence and focus. Part of the problem with quantifying the Emperor's powers and abilities is that he doesn't actually seem to use them all that often. Maybe that's because he's spending most of his effort keeping the Astronomicon going or maybe his powers, while vast, are not as wdie-ranging as he would have us believe?

I'm not sure if its worth replying to him at this point to be honest. I've certainly tried, as have many others including yourself. He seems to cherry pick who he replies to and if he's finally backed into a corner like in the last locked thread he goes into full chatroom mode and says he's going to go outside, watch a movie or try to buy 1st edition Rogue Trader for some bizarre reason. The threads hes started have continued in spite of him, since he himself doesn't seem interested in any discussion beyond having people agree with him. He spammed several PM's to me about these random quote blocks before he got the hint I wasn't interested/was confused.

There's other people in the thread. If you don't want to interact with one of them, nobody is forcing you to. Discussion is good regardless.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Grimskul wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
[snip]A whole bunch of fairly irrelevant quotes[/snip]

Okay...deep breath. Dude, just posting a bunch of really long quotes with little to no explanation or further commentary is completely and utterly useless. Quote dumping is not the same as discussing. You've posted a whole bunch of quotes but not actually responded in any meaningful way to the point being discussed. You understand the purpose of this forum, right? If you're directly responding to someone else's points then it makes sense to, y'know, actually address them in some way. You seem to be under the impression your quotes somehow speak for themselves but there are 2 problems with that most of the time:

1. They don't
2. Point 1 notwithstanding, your quotes are so long and obtuse, picking out the point you're trying to get across is pretty much impossible.

What BrianDavion was getting at is that the Emperor's powers are likely very different in the 41st millenium compared to the 31st. It's not even a question of power, rather it's one of influence and focus. Part of the problem with quantifying the Emperor's powers and abilities is that he doesn't actually seem to use them all that often. Maybe that's because he's spending most of his effort keeping the Astronomicon going or maybe his powers, while vast, are not as wdie-ranging as he would have us believe?

I'm not sure if its worth replying to him at this point to be honest. I've certainly tried, as have many others including yourself. He seems to cherry pick who he replies to and if he's finally backed into a corner like in the last locked thread he goes into full chatroom mode and says he's going to go outside, watch a movie or try to buy 1st edition Rogue Trader for some bizarre reason. The threads hes started have continued in spite of him, since he himself doesn't seem interested in any discussion beyond having people agree with him. He spammed several PM's to me about these random quote blocks before he got the hint I wasn't interested/was confused.

There's other people in the thread. If you don't want to interact with one of them, nobody is forcing you to. Discussion is good regardless.

You notice that I already said that right? That the threads go on in spite of the OP, rather than because of him. The main reason why I brought him up is that he periodically comes back and breaks the flow of the discussion by randomly quote dumping and repeating the same inane statements, even though it often has nothing to do with the current debate. His treatment of the forum as a chatroom disrupts a lot of the interesting ideas that are brought up, and I don't see how that's productive.

Worst case scenario, you don't have to interact with me either if I'm bothering you somehow.

 Crimson wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yeah, sorry, that's just stupid beyond belief.

Can you please stop insulting me and try to have some civility here? Like it or not, it's what they've written, trying to deny it at this point because you dislike may seem like stubborn stupidity to me, but I'm not going to sit here and personally attack your beliefs over a disagreement on the lore.

I'm not insulting you (except maybe your taste in literature) nor denying what you describe being the case. I probably need to take your word that this is the implicit intent of the BL authors, (I haven't read enough to form such an overall judgement of the narrative.) But if this is indeed is what they wanted to do, then the destruction of 40K lore is far more extensive than I even imagined. If the lore is in the hands of people who think that this sort of utterly implausible contrived nonsesnse that destroys the drama and thematic depth of the narrative is a good idea, then there indeed is no hope.

The Emperor is either an idiot, or he planned for the Heresy. BTW, The Horus Heresy books are badly written a lot of times, so the Emperor's stupid moves can be blamed for crappy writing.



How do you explain my quote from Mechanicum showing the Emperor can see tens of thousands of years into the future?




‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’

‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’

Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.

The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.

‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.’


Semyon is a Guardian of the Void Dragon who was granted a sliver of the Emperor's power and immortality.



Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.



And don't deny the Perpetuals just because you hate them. I fail to see what is so stupid about the Perpetuals. Daemon Princes are immortal, and were once squishy mortals.



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SHUPPET, is there really any debate about the Emperor being DAOT tech? My talk with ADB confirms he is not when ADB said in my talk with him we can safely say he is not DAOT. There is no debate there.

Did you really feel the need to PM me a rant and more quotes?

Andykp wrote:
I’m a perpetual denier! (This whole section is getting too silly for me to even visit. U can’t have a discussion here at all.)

And I have never had a “hate boner” in my life. Onething you are a very strange chap and act in an odd way. My take on it is ol person doesn’t prove the emperor isn’t DAoT tech. Because the emperor, a perpetual, could have been assimilated into some DAoT during the DAoT. The reason it dark is we don’t know what happened then. So maybe the emperors consciousness was transmuted into a powerful AI flesh skin and that’s what we have today. Or maybe not. But it’s possible.

It’s also possible the whole thing is a big lie and the emperor is just a little man behind a sheet pulling levers and we should all click our ruby slippers together and go home.

I don't know if you are lazy in writing, but you could at least spell his name correctly. Perpetual Oll Persson. I'm not trying to be an asswhole or anything. I'm just saying to not be lazy in typing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you really feel the need to PM me a rant and more quotes?

My mistake. I got carried away. I should not have said that. Sorry about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 darkcloak wrote:
Still this?

How many times do we have to read about who said what about the Emperor?

Only when the one true thing is established by the King of Light.

Has it been confirmed that he's him? I noticed that you and Azrael's comments about him being a sockpuppet were deleted. I sense a conspiracy! Show yourself, King of Light!

I don't even know who that is. I am not this King of Light.

Onething123456 wrote:

I don't know if you are lazy in writing, but you could at least spell his name correctly. Perpetual Oll Persson. I'm not trying to be an asswhole or anything. I'm just saying to not be lazy in typing.

Three things:
1: The character's name is not 'Perpetual Oll Persson'. It's just 'Oll Persson'.

2: It's not up to you to correct other posters' writing. So long as they're sticking within the bounds of what is acceptable within forum rules, if other people don't adhere to the standard that you personally deem appropriate, you're just going to have to get over it.

And 3:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Did you really feel the need to PM me a rant and more quotes?

My mistake. I got carried away. I should not have said that. Sorry about that.

You have been specifically told to stop doing this. Confine your posting to the forum, and stop sending people unsolicited PMs to try to continue arguments from threads.

Onething123456 wrote:
My talk with ADB on Reddit shows him saying we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT. So I do not know why people keep saying the Emperor might be DAOT tech. And I am not going to be hostile in this thread, I am just saying that the Emperor is "safely" not DAOT tech going by my talk with ADB on Reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8zkgxp/just_grabbed_my_first_ever_aaron_dembskibowden/e2tpt6h/?context=3

Yeah, I read that little interaction with ADB there, you really don't get subtly or sarcasm do you?

I bet if 'THE PLOT" and model sales decided that the Emperor was a relic of Golden Age of Technology ( Heathen it was a GOLDEN AGE not a Dark Age only ignorance since that time has lead to this 'myth' of it being a dark age ) he would be a relic of the Golden Age of Technology.

His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.

Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.

I'm getting too Oll Persson for this gak.

My take on the arc of the Heresy books is that they started in one place in Horus Rising and then to keep things interesting they've added more intrigue about the Emperor and his plans. In the early books the interesting theme was how the legionnaires are all shocked that this is happening as brother turns against brother. The future was bright and then things took an unexpected turn for the worse. So in the early books they lament the 20 retirement community buildings on Terra that will go unused.

Then the twist in the mid-books is that Lorgar has planned this whole thing out from 50 years before a shot is fired. Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron have outsmarted the Emperor and the whole thing was busted way before it actually broke.

So then to keep the audience interested the latest twist is that the Emperor foresaw the turn and has engineered it as the only possible salvation for humanity. The twists in the narrative will leave some holes in the plot though. Before I get the Mechanicum quote posted at me, I do realize that Mechanicum was early in the series and shows E's powers of foresight. The book didn't hint that he saw the Heresy though.

Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.

a man whose last name was Pius isn't any more creative in the context the story was told Andy. And chances are Oll is just short of Ollanius. so.. yeah the only change is his surname

bogalubov wrote:

Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.

I'm getting too Oll Persson for this gak.

My take on the arc of the Heresy books is that they started in one place in Horus Rising and then to keep things interesting they've added more intrigue about the Emperor and his plans. In the early books the interesting theme was how the legionnaires are all shocked that this is happening as brother turns against brother. The future was bright and then things took an unexpected turn for the worse. So in the early books they lament the 20 retirement community buildings on Terra that will go unused.

Then the twist in the mid-books is that Lorgar has planned this whole thing out from 50 years before a shot is fired. Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron have outsmarted the Emperor and the whole thing was busted way before it actually broke.

So then to keep the audience interested the latest twist is that the Emperor foresaw the turn and has engineered it as the only possible salvation for humanity. The twists in the narrative will leave some holes in the plot though. Before I get the Mechanicum quote posted at me, I do realize that Mechanicum was early in the series and shows E's powers of foresight. The book didn't hint that he saw the Heresy though.

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Eh by Legion at least they are already building it, possibly earlier I can't recall, and then definitely by a Thousand Sons. Also Mechanicum absolutely hinted at it, in fact it's come up so many times in here because it almost definitively says it.

They've been talking about the narrow path for a long time, but that the fact that the Emperor meant for things to end in a grim dark way is a recent development. Even in Emperor of Mankind he's clearly still working on claiming the webway and weaning humanity off the warp.

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
His real name is Ollanius Pius. They changed it to a play on words with old person. That’s lazy.

a man whose last name was Pius isn't any more creative in the context the story was told Andy. And chances are Oll is just short of Ollanius. so.. yeah the only change is his surname

That’s kind of the point of him, he prob wasn’t called that at all but it sounds a great name for a saint and the story has gotten embellished over the years to inspire the common fighting man, same as the stalinists did in Ww2 Russia (and everyone else). What he wasn’t was a crude plot device shoehorned into a setting from nowhere. I know in setting most people wouldn’t know the perpetual nonesense but we do. And it’s not needed at all.