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 insaniak wrote:
You also have a whole bunch of other people mad at GW for writing crap rules.

Hence, if their strategy is to make people blame each other instead of GW for the state of the rules, it's clearly not working.

Right. But GW will never, ever, ever, ever write good rules if crap ones are so profitable.

 insaniak wrote:
You also have a whole bunch of other people mad at GW for writing crap rules.

Hence, if their strategy is to make people blame each other instead of GW for the state of the rules, it's clearly not working.

It's working far better for them than any other miniatures company. I don't know any other wargame where when the developers write rules the playerbase blames their opponents instead if the writers.

 grouchoben wrote:
Yeah you're right Johnny. I'd prefer them to. Would you? Would we all? What do they benefit from their current stazi-level of information control, is the question, and is it worth the barrels of salt that are currently building up in the community?

I think the barrels of salt you refer to are the communities issue, not GW's. People need to chill out.


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Karol wrote:
I think that GW may risk some people their games for good. It is one thing to wait for the next FAQ or CA, and have a hope that maybe next updated codex is yours and be told that GW plans to update your faction in 2 plus years times. Now some people may switch an army, while waiting, or change from w40k to AoS. But there is also a bunch of people who will leave. Specialy if GW botched your codex, and new models come only with a new one. The known prospect of a 2 plus year wait would not be a nice thing, specialy for a new player who hasn't played for decades.

GW clearly knows what they are doing business wise, as they seem to be getting bigger and bigger. The games may often be unfun for parts of their fandoms, but having a good game doesn't seem to be GW goal, or at least not a main goal.

People leave 40k for different reason's, I highly doubt any of it has to do with GW. Which codex did GW botch in 8th edition? As far as I know, I have seen most of the races played in my group and on Youtube battle reports and all the codex's seem to perform fine in casual/semi competitive games. Most of the time if a player loses a game its due to his player skill, not using the right stratagem's or not playing for the objectives in these new missions. What codex is so horrible that you cant game with in a casual/semi competitive setting?

Who said 40k is no longer fun, and why do they feel that way? 8th edition is the most fun our gaming group has ever had with 40k, and that is saying alot. GW have done an incredible job with 8th imo, and 9th will be even better.

Honestly, I think your points are exaggerated and you need to take a break from your thought process on what YOU think other 40k players feel about 8th edition, and stop saying people are gonna leave 40k for good. Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me.


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 Galas wrote:
Is true that GW is spamming space marines non stop. But they are also releasing more models for all other lines, games, and factions than ever before.


The truth is , compared with how things were 15-10 years ago, GW has pumped out their output of new stuff, models, games, etc... trought the roof. That means, we also have a more ton of marines, because if you have 10 marine releases an 4 non marine releases and you double it, you'll end up with 8 non marine releases but with 20 marine ones.

Is true that it can look like you receive nothing if you play a single warhammer 40k faction that isn't one of the big ones like Marines or Chaos. But thats a small sub-set of the player base.

Well said, people need to understand, Marines is GW's cash cow, its a train that has to keep going, and because of that, other codex's get model releases. It blows me away that people have explained it to Dakka forum members for the past 20+ years and every other week they forget for some reason and then its back to complaining. It boggles my mind.


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 Grimtuff wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"They're making lots of money, therefore there is literally no avenue or aspect of their business or business practices that can be changed, improved or otherwise upgraded."

You know who else makes lots of money? EA. Activision. Ubisoft. And they're a pack of witches.

"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"



Them mountains of SM datasheets that literally outnumber entire factions combined together are not healthy for the game long term. They might make them a lot of cashola short term but it is damaging and frankly demeaning to the long term players who have basically been told they are playing second fiddle for choosing the wrong army.

How is GW releasing models for an army " damaging " to a player in any way? Were talking about a game where you set up models, roll some dice, have a good time with friends, maybe have a beer or 2... and you want to complain that your army doesn't get as many releases as Space Marines because GW HAS to keep selling them to stay afloat as a company? You do realize that if GW didnt do it this way sales would be poor and then the Company would go bankrupt right? So what would you rather have? A cool army that has releases? Or nothing and you have to find a different game to play because GW decided to take some random Dakka forum members advice and tried to sell too many releases for another faction that people wont be as interested in buying because they are not Marines?

hungryugolino wrote:

 Lorek wrote:

hungryugolino wrote:

Saying "it's a toy" doesn't change that the company is pushing some decidedly exploitative and customer-hostile policies in how it approaches those sales.

I'm still failing to see how GW is exploiting its customers. Can you support this at all? It's a hobby, and I understand being very invested in it (I definitely am), but I don't see how GW's release schedule is harmful.

Okay so.

Simply put, GW is making a conscious choice to chase Primaris purchases rather than give basic support for a large fraction of their range. This isn't simple faction favoritism as we've seen for most of 40k, it's the failure state of a company that has obligations to multiple parts of its fanbase.

They aren't just making Primaris more than they are other factions, they're explicitly avoiding making ANYTHING for other factions except where Primaris are involved. Primaris players are the only ones that are guaranteed to get annual updates and constant new releases- which is downright abusive to players of factions which literally are still using troop sets that haven't been modernized since before some of their players were born.

GW making the decision to dedicate all their development time and releases to Primaris means that because rules are also tied to new models, players of those other factions will have worse experiences. So you have a situation where the real playerbase is not only not receiving model support (and constant price hikes on their aging sets, as insult to injury) they've also been overshadowed by slower and worse rules releases to boot, simply by virtue of "new model kit means GW will give them suitably broken rules sometimes in pursuit of sales" (which we've had admissions GW has done more than once- I believe fliers were mentioned in an interview?)

It's a vicious cycle of other factions are neglected->GW tunnel visions on the Primaris->more drones buy into Primaris, rewarding GW's bad decision making -> other factions continue to be neglected...

Until we get 20 years without an update to the range's basic models and a Codex clogged with Primaris no one really asked for.

So basically, because of maladaptive GW decision making, we're in a situation where the entire rest of the hobby is worse off because of the existence of Primaris players pumping more money and reinforcing their current decision making where Primaris get constant releases and everyone else just kind of hopes they get dragged along as an excuse for GW to pretend other factions matter to them. This is toxic and GW needs to commit to a more sensible- and fair- release schedule, even just 1:1 for Primaris/a faction that needs it. No more Primaris waves unless they're accompanied by a full faction modernization.

Realistically,though, Primaris will continue to be a cancer of GW's own making, making that entire segment of the playerbase a threat to everyone else's hobby enjoyment just by existing and reinforcing their bad decision making through their mindless purchases.

Care to explain to us why you think a GW release for an army is " abusive " just because its not a release for your army? You may want to look up the word " abusive " in the dictionary. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I don't think the hobby is worse off at all. People are excited about 40k, and other races/codex's have seen plenty of releases. Plenty of people are playing factions other than Marines and are winning tournaments as well. What is this toxic GW behavior your referring to? How is Primaris " cancer " when the hobby and people who participate in modeling, painting, playing, are having fun with 40k because they are successful as a company? How are Primaris players " a threat " to your enjoyment? How is playing with older models against new models when even the old models are UPDATED WITH UPDATED RULES every single edition a bad thing? Some people would not purchase new models for nostalgic reason's or because they like the current range better and do not want it to change, so why do you think you are their spokesperson all of a sudden? Why are Primaris army people " mindless purchasers " ? I bought a Primaris army because its fun, looks cool and is fun to play, which im sure alot of people had the same reasons as I did. My decision to purchase was not mindless, so why should us Primaris players believe your opinion on our purchases and army matter?

Maybe you should consider that you have an attitude, and are possibly toxic, and that you have alot of opinions about 40k and GW as a company that simply aren't based on reality. Maybe you should move on to a different game if the 40k and GW experience is negative for you.

Meanwhile let us 40k gamers keep having fun rolling dice, playing games with old models with updated rules vs new shiny Primaris in 9th edition, without you.


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hungryugolino wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Um what about those Necrons getting just as big an update at the same time as Primaris? Isn't that exactly what you're asking for?

What motivation do Ork, Eldar, and Guard players have to stick around? Kitbashing or love of lore (which has also been swallowed up by the Primaris malignancy) only goes so far with a lack of GW support, especially with model-driven rules effectiveness.

Ork armies, Eldar armies, and Guard armies still work just like they always have, and rules are updated every single edition. Orks and Eldar have seen new model releases too not too long ago. Why does GW have to conform to your schedule for us Ork/Eldar/Guard players to keep having fun and playing the game?


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Hecaton wrote:
You can't deny that the support for Primaris outstrips that for all other armies by a significant magnitude.

And its a good thing too. If it was not this way 40k and GW would not exist anymore and I would not be able to play my Eldar/Tau/old Blood Angels army in the brand new 9th edition rules against other Primaris/Sisters/Xenos armies. Its a good thing GW are successful as a company, otherwise we would be looking for a new game to play.


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 grouchoben wrote:
I think there has to be a middle ground here right?


GW could help solve a lot of the negativity that has built up in the community

I don't think GW can solve the negativity in the community at all, that is not what GW does. Negativity has nothing to do with GW. I think those that spread negativity should probably look into counseling, that might help them more than what they think GW should and shouldn't do as a gaming company.

So why are they actively trying to band aid stuff constantly and faq their own FAQs?

They could just not do any of it...

 Argive wrote:
So why are they actively trying to band aid stuff constantly and faq their own FAQs?

They could just not do any of it...

Because they are incapable of doing anything correct the first time, and some beancounter analyst intern has determined that spending resources to write FAQs is more profitiable.

But negativity is not GWs fault and nor is fixing it... Its all in our heads wanting a fair and good game for our expensive toy solidiers

 Alwrath wrote:
I don't think the hobby is worse off at all. People are excited about 40k, and other races/codex's have seen plenty of releases. Plenty of people are playing factions other than Marines and are winning tournaments as well. What is this toxic GW behavior your referring to? How is Primaris " cancer " when the hobby and people who participate in modeling, painting, playing, are having fun with 40k because they are successful as a company? How are Primaris players " a threat " to your enjoyment? How is playing with older models against new models when even the old models are UPDATED WITH UPDATED RULES every single edition a bad thing? Some people would not purchase new models for nostalgic reason's or because they like the current range better and do not want it to change, so why do you think you are their spokesperson all of a sudden? Why are Primaris army people " mindless purchasers " ? I bought a Primaris army because its fun, looks cool and is fun to play, which im sure alot of people had the same reasons as I did. My decision to purchase was not mindless, so why should us Primaris players believe your opinion on our purchases and army matter?

Primaris are cancer because it's Space Marines sucking up more and more of the development time and story focus from other parts of the setting, to the detriment of the whole, just like a tumor sucks resources from its host.

 Alwrath wrote:
Meanwhile let us 40k gamers keep having fun rolling dice, playing games with old models with updated rules vs new shiny Primaris in 9th edition, without you.

The issue is if we can't get a fair fight with Primaris vs. some other army, then it's not "having fun rolling dice."

 Alwrath wrote:
Ork armies, Eldar armies, and Guard armies still work just like they always have, and rules are updated every single edition. Orks and Eldar have seen new model releases too not too long ago. Why does GW have to conform to your schedule for us Ork/Eldar/Guard players to keep having fun and playing the game?

These armies have lost choices, actually, like any sort of variation in their HQ's. Meanwhile marines are sitting on Primaris Lt. #3489034730. If a player looks at that, and sees how the faction they're a fan of is treated compared to Primaris/Space Marines, they're going to see a discrepancy, and if they have any self-respect that discrepancy isn't going to endear them to GW.

 Alwrath wrote:
And its a good thing too. If it was not this way 40k and GW would not exist anymore and I would not be able to play my Eldar/Tau/old Blood Angels army in the brand new 9th edition rules against other Primaris/Sisters/Xenos armies. Its a good thing GW are successful as a company, otherwise we would be looking for a new game to play.

No, 40k would not have died if your favorite faction wasn't given overweening support.

Hecaton wrote:

The issue is if we can't get a fair fight with Primaris vs. some other army, then it's not "having fun rolling dice."

And yet people continue to beat them. Anyone else remember when Outriders were "insane" (nineteen attacks!)? Where are they to be found? BGV are "unstoppable", but they're losing games. Even a few lists with 6 Eradicators went 2-3 at the Labor Day GT.

Marines are still the strongest out there, but people are capable of having a fun and engaging battle against them.

These armies have lost choices, actually, like any sort of variation in their HQ's. Meanwhile marines are sitting on Primaris Lt. #3489034730. If a player looks at that, and sees how the faction they're a fan of is treated compared to Primaris/Space Marines, they're going to see a discrepancy, and if they have any self-respect that discrepancy isn't going to endear them to GW.

You may want to take a stroll through legends to see what marines have lost for units. Do you think that extra generic LT has added anything to marines?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

The issue is if we can't get a fair fight with Primaris vs. some other army, then it's not "having fun rolling dice."

And yet people continue to beat them. Anyone else remember when Outriders were "insane" (nineteen attacks!)? Where are they to be found? BGV are "unstoppable", but they're losing games. Even a few lists with 6 Eradicators went 2-3 at the Labor Day GT.

Marines are still the strongest out there, but people are capable of having a fun and engaging battle against them.

These armies have lost choices, actually, like any sort of variation in their HQ's. Meanwhile marines are sitting on Primaris Lt. #3489034730. If a player looks at that, and sees how the faction they're a fan of is treated compared to Primaris/Space Marines, they're going to see a discrepancy, and if they have any self-respect that discrepancy isn't going to endear them to GW.

You may want to take a stroll through legends to see what marines have lost for units. Do you think that extra generic LT has added anything to marines?

I think that's kind of the point... New models that add nothing functional to the game/faction, are astheticaly the same as its predecessor... and yet.....

Primaris are NOT cancer because that is the only reason we can play with all the other races in 40k. If Space Marines didn't exist, and GW didn't make any money, we wouldn't be playing the game anymore AT ALL. Space Marines HAVE to succeed to keep GW going as a company. No more company? No more Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, you get the point now?

My Primaris have been tabled by turn 3 with opponent's armies. Obviously they know something you dont.

When did 40k " die "? Thousands of players are playing and enjoying 40k right now, and the game is certainly not " dead " like you claim. Stop spreading misinformation. If you dont like 40k, play a different game. Let us veteran 40k players continue to have fun, roll dice, have our beers, and play the game.

Removed.

Hecaton wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
You also have a whole bunch of other people mad at GW for writing crap rules.

Hence, if their strategy is to make people blame each other instead of GW for the state of the rules, it's clearly not working.

It's working far better for them than any other miniatures company. I don't know any other wargame where when the developers write rules the playerbase blames their opponents instead if the writers.

Flames of War (4e) comes to mind. If you play Germans & run a Ferdinand heavy list in Mid-War you can generate yourself some hate. And by mixing DAK units into it you can double the ill will.
1) Ferds are really good. And cheap! So of course there's always the chorus of "broken!"
2) Mixing Ferds & DAK is mixing equipment from different theatres. Sure the rules allow this....
One of these is a bigger sin than the other. But combined....

Time to dial it down, being polite is not optional.

 Alwrath wrote:

Spoiler:

Hecaton wrote:

 Alwrath wrote:
I don't think the hobby is worse off at all. People are excited about 40k, and other races/codex's have seen plenty of releases. Plenty of people are playing factions other than Marines and are winning tournaments as well. What is this toxic GW behavior your referring to? How is Primaris " cancer " when the hobby and people who participate in modeling, painting, playing, are having fun with 40k because they are successful as a company? How are Primaris players " a threat " to your enjoyment? How is playing with older models against new models when even the old models are UPDATED WITH UPDATED RULES every single edition a bad thing? Some people would not purchase new models for nostalgic reason's or because they like the current range better and do not want it to change, so why do you think you are their spokesperson all of a sudden? Why are Primaris army people " mindless purchasers " ? I bought a Primaris army because its fun, looks cool and is fun to play, which im sure alot of people had the same reasons as I did. My decision to purchase was not mindless, so why should us Primaris players believe your opinion on our purchases and army matter?

Primaris are cancer because it's Space Marines sucking up more and more of the development time and story focus from other parts of the setting, to the detriment of the whole, just like a tumor sucks resources from its host.

 Alwrath wrote:
Meanwhile let us 40k gamers keep having fun rolling dice, playing games with old models with updated rules vs new shiny Primaris in 9th edition, without you.

The issue is if we can't get a fair fight with Primaris vs. some other army, then it's not "having fun rolling dice."

 Alwrath wrote:
Ork armies, Eldar armies, and Guard armies still work just like they always have, and rules are updated every single edition. Orks and Eldar have seen new model releases too not too long ago. Why does GW have to conform to your schedule for us Ork/Eldar/Guard players to keep having fun and playing the game?

These armies have lost choices, actually, like any sort of variation in their HQ's. Meanwhile marines are sitting on Primaris Lt. #3489034730. If a player looks at that, and sees how the faction they're a fan of is treated compared to Primaris/Space Marines, they're going to see a discrepancy, and if they have any self-respect that discrepancy isn't going to endear them to GW.

 Alwrath wrote:
And its a good thing too. If it was not this way 40k and GW would not exist anymore and I would not be able to play my Eldar/Tau/old Blood Angels army in the brand new 9th edition rules against other Primaris/Sisters/Xenos armies. Its a good thing GW are successful as a company, otherwise we would be looking for a new game to play.

No, 40k would not have died if your favorite faction wasn't given overweening support. .

Primaris are NOT cancer because that is the only reason we can play with all the other races in 40k. If Space Marines didn't exist, and GW didn't make any money, we wouldn't be playing the game anymore AT ALL. Space Marines HAVE to succeed to keep GW going as a company. No more company? No more Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, you get the point now?

My Primaris have been tabled by turn 3 with opponent's armies. Obviously they know something you dont.

When did 40k " die "? Thousands of players are playing and enjoying 40k right now, and the game is certainly not " dead " like you claim. Stop spreading misinformation. If you dont like 40k, play a different game. Let us veteran 40k players continue to have fun, roll dice, have our beers, and play the game.

Do you understand the mistake you made reading my post now?

 Alwrath wrote:
Primaris are NOT cancer because that is the only reason we can play with all the other races in 40k. If Space Marines didn't exist, and GW didn't make any money, we wouldn't be playing the game anymore AT ALL. Space Marines HAVE to succeed to keep GW going as a company.

That's, like, your opinion man ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
I don't share it, I think GW does get money from ranges other than space marines, and would still be profitable if they stopped releasing space marines miniatures. Maybe less so, maybe more soI don't know, I'm not Nostradamus AND it depends on what they release instead, but I'm pretty sure they would still be profitable.

I mean marines have historically accounted for over 50% of their total sales, so literally more than everything else combined(and this is when their rules were bad) so it definitely seems like there is lots of demand for it.

At the end of the day you can call marines one faction but every release can be sold to at least 4-5 different “factions”( Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Space Wolves, etc.)

The demand is there for marines, less so for other factions.

 Leth wrote:
I mean marines have historically accounted for over 50% of their total sales

And 90% of their total advertising.

People asking for GW to release less Marines is like asking for Burguer King to drop the Whooper. Yeah they can and will experiment with other things but when you struck gold you don't stop until Mali is dryer than the sahara.