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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I hate to break it to you. But the marine HAS been bad in every eddition until 8.5. If you don't understand that there is no point in discussing further honestly. Other units have been bad in the history of the game ofc - but the marine is literally EVERY SINGLE CHOICE in the marine arsenals. It is a much bigger problem when a marine is bad - than a gradian being bad.

They are pretty good now with 2 wounds - but if you want to give everything else 2 wounds they will be bad again. It is that simple.

My personal opinion is the +1 attack in the first round of combat is unnecessary for the "angels of death" rule. However for ork boys the +1 attacks for 20 man units is also unnecessary so there is tones of rules bloat all over the place.

Then how come Marines consistently topped tournaments, going at least two editions back? Possibly more-I just started in 7th, so I don't have experience in 6th and earlier.

Cause they didn't? Soup gimicks did. Bark star and superfriends are not marine lists.
They're made from Marine Codecs. Are you saying that Eldar lists don't count because they took Windriders and Wraithknights instead of Guardians and Dire Avengers?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
I hate to break it to you. But the marine HAS been bad in every eddition until 8.5. If you don't understand that there is no point in discussing further honestly. Other units have been bad in the history of the game ofc - but the marine is literally EVERY SINGLE CHOICE in the marine arsenals. It is a much bigger problem when a marine is bad - than a gradian being bad.

They are pretty good now with 2 wounds - but if you want to give everything else 2 wounds they will be bad again. It is that simple.


SemperMortis gave a well-reasoned statistical breakdown of why your drive-by claim about Orks having much better offensive output is wrong, and you didn't address it at all. Several people in this thread- including other Marine players- have made arguments for why Marines haven't historically been terrible, and you're ignoring them now.

If you don't want to participate in the thread, could you start your own to whine about how your army has always been terrible, everyone who disagrees doesn't know the army, and if you're not kept super-special then your army will be terrible again?
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Darsath wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I hate to break it to you. But the marine HAS been bad in every eddition until 8.5. If you don't understand that there is no point in discussing further honestly. Other units have been bad in the history of the game ofc - but the marine is literally EVERY SINGLE CHOICE in the marine arsenals. It is a much bigger problem when a marine is bad - than a gradian being bad.

They are pretty good now with 2 wounds - but if you want to give everything else 2 wounds they will be bad again. It is that simple.

My personal opinion is the +1 attack in the first round of combat is unnecessary for the "angels of death" rule. However for ork boys the +1 attacks for 20 man units is also unnecessary so there is tones of rules bloat all over the place.

Then how come Marines consistently topped tournaments, going at least two editions back? Possibly more-I just started in 7th, so I don't have experience in 6th and earlier.

Cause they didn't? Soup gimicks did. Bark star and superfriends are not marine lists.

Marines with the 700 points of free transports did, in fact, top tournaments with Double Demicompany my man.

A brief period where they get new rules before other armies did. You do realize 7.5 ynnari would literally never lose a game with those busted rules - if the edition did not die right after that - it would have been top 10 ynnari every time in 7.5. It was a joke. Also - gladius did not win by destroying its opponent. It was a horde list that could only win on objectives. Playing with it I was tabled multiple times by deathstars I could not possibly destroy.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
A brief period where they get new rules before other armies did. You do realize 7.5 ynnari would literally never lose a game with those busted rules - if the edition did not die right after that - it would have been top 10 ynnari every time in 7.5. It was a joke. Also - gladius did not win by destroying its opponent. It was a horde list that could only win on objectives. Playing with it I was tabled multiple times by deathstars I could not possibly destroy.
So, what you're saying is that while other players were winning tournaments with that type of list, you were getting crushed?

Xeno, have you tried being introspective?

And, can someone who's more up-to-date on older tournament scenes let me know, how did Marines do in top placing for 6th? 5th? Earlier?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Xenomancers wrote:
Darsath wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I hate to break it to you. But the marine HAS been bad in every eddition until 8.5. If you don't understand that there is no point in discussing further honestly. Other units have been bad in the history of the game ofc - but the marine is literally EVERY SINGLE CHOICE in the marine arsenals. It is a much bigger problem when a marine is bad - than a gradian being bad.

They are pretty good now with 2 wounds - but if you want to give everything else 2 wounds they will be bad again. It is that simple.

My personal opinion is the +1 attack in the first round of combat is unnecessary for the "angels of death" rule. However for ork boys the +1 attacks for 20 man units is also unnecessary so there is tones of rules bloat all over the place.

Then how come Marines consistently topped tournaments, going at least two editions back? Possibly more-I just started in 7th, so I don't have experience in 6th and earlier.

Cause they didn't? Soup gimicks did. Bark star and superfriends are not marine lists.

Marines with the 700 points of free transports did, in fact, top tournaments with Double Demicompany my man.

A brief period where they get new rules before other armies did. You do realize 7.5 ynnari would literally never lose a game with those busted rules - if the edition did not die right after that - it would have been top 10 ynnari every time in 7.5. It was a joke. Also - gladius did not win by destroying its opponent. It was a horde list that could only win on objectives. Playing with it I was tabled multiple times by deathstars I could not possibly destroy.

This was the same for Necrons, and I'd consider them to be a strong 7th edition army for sure. Space Marines were similar, they were busted when they first came out, then the next power-crept release came out and outshone them. They never truly went away, but were never top tier after that either.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I hate to break it to you. But the marine HAS been bad in every eddition until 8.5. If you don't understand that there is no point in discussing further honestly. Other units have been bad in the history of the game ofc - but the marine is literally EVERY SINGLE CHOICE in the marine arsenals. It is a much bigger problem when a marine is bad - than a gradian being bad.

They are pretty good now with 2 wounds - but if you want to give everything else 2 wounds they will be bad again. It is that simple.


SemperMortis gave a well-reasoned statistical breakdown of why your drive-by claim about Orks having much better offensive output is wrong, and you didn't address it at all. Several people in this thread- including other Marine players- have made arguments for why Marines haven't historically been terrible, and you're ignoring them now.

If you don't want to participate in the thread, could you start your own to whine about how your army has always been terrible, everyone who disagrees doesn't know the army, and if you're not kept super-special then your army will be terrible again?

Saying words that sound good together does not make a well reasoned response. Tactical marine has always been bad. It has always been avoided and similarly there has always been a huge amount of people saying they aren't bad ether...It is always the same people too.

Currently - 30 orks has 120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's and 30 str 4 attacks that hit on 5's - 10 intercessors has 61 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's if they have autobolters(the best choice).

Do we really need to go further into which unit does more damage?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Darsath wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Darsath wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I hate to break it to you. But the marine HAS been bad in every eddition until 8.5. If you don't understand that there is no point in discussing further honestly. Other units have been bad in the history of the game ofc - but the marine is literally EVERY SINGLE CHOICE in the marine arsenals. It is a much bigger problem when a marine is bad - than a gradian being bad.

They are pretty good now with 2 wounds - but if you want to give everything else 2 wounds they will be bad again. It is that simple.

My personal opinion is the +1 attack in the first round of combat is unnecessary for the "angels of death" rule. However for ork boys the +1 attacks for 20 man units is also unnecessary so there is tones of rules bloat all over the place.

Then how come Marines consistently topped tournaments, going at least two editions back? Possibly more-I just started in 7th, so I don't have experience in 6th and earlier.

Cause they didn't? Soup gimicks did. Bark star and superfriends are not marine lists.

Marines with the 700 points of free transports did, in fact, top tournaments with Double Demicompany my man.

A brief period where they get new rules before other armies did. You do realize 7.5 ynnari would literally never lose a game with those busted rules - if the edition did not die right after that - it would have been top 10 ynnari every time in 7.5. It was a joke. Also - gladius did not win by destroying its opponent. It was a horde list that could only win on objectives. Playing with it I was tabled multiple times by deathstars I could not possibly destroy.

This was the same for Necrons, and I'd consider them to be a strong 7th edition army for sure. Space Marines were similar, they were busted when they first came out, then the next power-crept release came out and outshone them. They never truly went away, but were never top tier after that either.
Because only a few armies got updated.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 18:20:09


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I hate to break it to you. But the marine HAS been bad in every eddition until 8.5. If you don't understand that there is no point in discussing further honestly. Other units have been bad in the history of the game ofc - but the marine is literally EVERY SINGLE CHOICE in the marine arsenals. It is a much bigger problem when a marine is bad - than a gradian being bad.

They are pretty good now with 2 wounds - but if you want to give everything else 2 wounds they will be bad again. It is that simple.


SemperMortis gave a well-reasoned statistical breakdown of why your drive-by claim about Orks having much better offensive output is wrong, and you didn't address it at all. Several people in this thread- including other Marine players- have made arguments for why Marines haven't historically been terrible, and you're ignoring them now.

If you don't want to participate in the thread, could you start your own to whine about how your army has always been terrible, everyone who disagrees doesn't know the army, and if you're not kept super-special then your army will be terrible again?

Saying words that sound good together does not make a well reasoned response. Tactical marine has always been bad. It has always been avoided and similarly there has always been a huge amount of people saying they aren't bad ether...It is always the same people too.

Currently - 30 orks has 120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's and 30 str 4 attacks that hit on 5's - 10 intercessors has 61 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's.

Do we really need to go further into which unit does more damage?
Yes. Because 30 Orks will almost never reach combat as a squad of 30, and if they do, they're unlikely to get all 30 attacking. They also need to get melee to use their 120 attacks, whereas Intercessors can do it from 24" away at minimum. The Intercessors are also cheaper, and gain AP on their weapons as turns go on.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:

Saying words that sound good together does not make a well reasoned response. Tactical marine has always been bad. It has always been avoided and similarly there has always been a huge amount of people saying they aren't bad ether...It is always the same people too.

Currently - 30 orks has 120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's and 30 str 4 attacks that hit on 5's - 10 intercessors has 61 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's if they have autobolters(the best choice).

Do we really need to go further into which unit does more damage?


Ah, so it's not that you're ignoring SemperMortis's reply, it's that you didn't actually read it.

Because he makes a pretty salient point about comparing Choppa Boyz to Intercessors being an apples-to-oranges comparison, whereas Intercessors out-shoot Shoota Boyz and Assault Intercessors out-fight Slugga Boyz. Comparing melee damage output to 24" shooting output is weird to start with.

I guess if your entire game experience is getting destroyed in casual play and setting up unfair comparisons to paint your own units in the worst possible light, I can understand why you might reach this sort of conclusion. But Marines were absolutely not as awful as you seem to think in 4th-5th, and I see plenty of support for them achieving good tournament results in 7th.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 18:25:25


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Saying words that sound good together does not make a well reasoned response. Tactical marine has always been bad. It has always been avoided and similarly there has always been a huge amount of people saying they aren't bad ether...It is always the same people too.

Currently - 30 orks has 120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's and 30 str 4 attacks that hit on 5's - 10 intercessors has 61 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's if they have autobolters(the best choice).

Do we really need to go further into which unit does more damage?


Ah, so it's not that you're ignoring SemperMortis's reply, it's that you didn't actually read it.

Because he makes a pretty salient point about comparing Choppa Boyz to Intercessors being an apples-to-oranges comparison, whereas Intercessors out-shoot Shoota Boyz and Assault Intercessors out-fight Slugga Boyz. Comparing melee damage output to 24" shooting output is weird to start with.

I guess if your entire game experience is getting destroyed in casual play and setting up unfair comparisons to paint your own units in the worst possible light, I can understand why you might reach this sort of conclusion. But Marines were absolutely not as awful as you seem to think in 4th-5th, and I see plenty of support for them achieving good tournament results in 7th.

It is a bad point.

Orks boys don't match up well against intercessors because they have ap-0 attacks vs 3+ saves. 10 Intercessors only kills 1 Primaris marine but kills 8 ork boys in melee...They actually have the same quality attack and orks per point put out about 4x the melee damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 18:31:20


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Saying words that sound good together does not make a well reasoned response. Tactical marine has always been bad. It has always been avoided and similarly there has always been a huge amount of people saying they aren't bad ether...It is always the same people too.

Currently - 30 orks has 120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's and 30 str 4 attacks that hit on 5's - 10 intercessors has 61 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's if they have autobolters(the best choice).

Do we really need to go further into which unit does more damage?


Ah, so it's not that you're ignoring SemperMortis's reply, it's that you didn't actually read it.

Because he makes a pretty salient point about comparing Choppa Boyz to Intercessors being an apples-to-oranges comparison, whereas Intercessors out-shoot Shoota Boyz and Assault Intercessors out-fight Slugga Boyz. Comparing melee damage output to 24" shooting output is weird to start with.

I guess if your entire game experience is getting destroyed in casual play and setting up unfair comparisons to paint your own units in the worst possible light, I can understand why you might reach this sort of conclusion. But Marines were absolutely not as awful as you seem to think in 4th-5th, and I see plenty of support for them achieving good tournament results in 7th.

It is a bad point.

Orks boys don't match up well against intercessors because they have ap-0 attacks vs 3+ saves. 10 Intercessors only kills 1 Primaris marine but kills 8 ork boys...They actually have the same quality attack though.
Unless it's T4+, or T3 in an Assault Doctrine army.
Or if they're Assault Intercessors, with an extra attack and everything at at least AP-1.
Or if they're getting buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Saying words that sound good together does not make a well reasoned response. Tactical marine has always been bad. It has always been avoided and similarly there has always been a huge amount of people saying they aren't bad ether...It is always the same people too.

Currently - 30 orks has 120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's and 30 str 4 attacks that hit on 5's - 10 intercessors has 61 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's if they have autobolters(the best choice).

Do we really need to go further into which unit does more damage?


Ah, so it's not that you're ignoring SemperMortis's reply, it's that you didn't actually read it.

Because he makes a pretty salient point about comparing Choppa Boyz to Intercessors being an apples-to-oranges comparison, whereas Intercessors out-shoot Shoota Boyz and Assault Intercessors out-fight Slugga Boyz. Comparing melee damage output to 24" shooting output is weird to start with.

I guess if your entire game experience is getting destroyed in casual play and setting up unfair comparisons to paint your own units in the worst possible light, I can understand why you might reach this sort of conclusion. But Marines were absolutely not as awful as you seem to think in 4th-5th, and I see plenty of support for them achieving good tournament results in 7th.

It is a bad point.

Orks boys don't match up well against intercessors because they have ap-0 attacks vs 3+ saves. 10 Intercessors only kills 1 Primaris marine but kills 8 ork boys...They actually have the same quality attack though.
Unless it's T4+, or T3 in an Assault Doctrine army.
Or if they're Assault Intercessors, with an extra attack and everything at at least AP-1.
Or if they're getting buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant.

Or unless the orks are in a 5++ bubble and have +1 str stratagem - or da jumped into combat turn 1 before they got to shoot. The game has aspects that you can't analyze in a discussion. Things like raw damage we can discuss though. Orks boys do a lot more damage than intercessors - not even disputable.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
I hate to break it to you. But the marine HAS been bad in every eddition until 8.5. If you don't understand that there is no point in discussing further honestly. Other units have been bad in the history of the game ofc - but the marine is almost every choice in the marine arsenals. It is a much bigger problem when a marine is bad - than a gradian being bad. It had to be fixed.

They are pretty good now with 2 wounds - but if you want to give everything else 2 wounds they will be bad again. It is that simple.

My personal opinion is the +1 attack in the first round of combat is unnecessary for the "angels of death" rule. However for ork boys the +1 attacks for 20 man units is also unnecessary so there is tones of rules bloat all over the place.



7th edition, 14pts for a Space Marine tactical. Capable of going toe to toe with Ork boyz that you claimed were great, absolutely out shooting them and almost being able to beat orkz in CC if they got the charge off. You know, the phase in which orkz are supposed to be amazing?

You complain all the time that SMs are pathetic and weak, you claim they are literally bottom tier at the same time as they are winning or placing highly in massive GTs and majors. You move the goal posts and shift arguments when you are proven wrong. SM tacticals weren't AMAZING but they weren't garbage, they competed basically on the same footing as other factions troops choices. I think that is the problem though, in your head you think Marines are the best at everything so therefore they shouldn't "Compete" with other factions troops, they should always be better.

Again, Intercessors out shoot Tau Firewarriors and out fight Genestealers, why aren't you guys spamming the hell out of them? Because yet again, the SM Codex is filled with even more broken units and combinations that make a troop choice beating a dedicated shooting unit AND a dedicated CC unit at the same time look bad.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Spoiler:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Saying words that sound good together does not make a well reasoned response. Tactical marine has always been bad. It has always been avoided and similarly there has always been a huge amount of people saying they aren't bad ether...It is always the same people too.

Currently - 30 orks has 120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's and 30 str 4 attacks that hit on 5's - 10 intercessors has 61 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's if they have autobolters(the best choice).

Do we really need to go further into which unit does more damage?


Ah, so it's not that you're ignoring SemperMortis's reply, it's that you didn't actually read it.

Because he makes a pretty salient point about comparing Choppa Boyz to Intercessors being an apples-to-oranges comparison, whereas Intercessors out-shoot Shoota Boyz and Assault Intercessors out-fight Slugga Boyz. Comparing melee damage output to 24" shooting output is weird to start with.

I guess if your entire game experience is getting destroyed in casual play and setting up unfair comparisons to paint your own units in the worst possible light, I can understand why you might reach this sort of conclusion. But Marines were absolutely not as awful as you seem to think in 4th-5th, and I see plenty of support for them achieving good tournament results in 7th.

It is a bad point.

Orks boys don't match up well against intercessors because they have ap-0 attacks vs 3+ saves. 10 Intercessors only kills 1 Primaris marine but kills 8 ork boys...They actually have the same quality attack though.
Unless it's T4+, or T3 in an Assault Doctrine army.
Or if they're Assault Intercessors, with an extra attack and everything at at least AP-1.
Or if they're getting buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant.

Or unless the orks are in a 5++ bubble and have +1 str stratagem - or da jumped into combat turn 1 before they got to shoot. The game has aspects that you can't analyze in a discussion. Things like raw damage we can discuss though. Orks boys do a lot more damage than intercessors - not even disputable.
They won't be in a 5++ if they charge T1. Overwatch can still hurt them. Screening hurts them-hell, Marines have Omniscramblers, which makes their charge literally impossible. The S5 Strat is Goff-Locked. And Multicharging has been nerfed.

Edit: Also, I'd still like to point out that you've said you were getting smashed while playing with the lists that won tournaments. I'll be blunt-it sounds like you've got a lot of room to grow as a player, or at least did back in 7th. There's no shame in that-hell, I can think of a very clear instance in 7th where I royally screwed up, and lost the game awfully because of it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 18:41:22


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I hate to break it to you. But the marine HAS been bad in every eddition until 8.5. If you don't understand that there is no point in discussing further honestly. Other units have been bad in the history of the game ofc - but the marine is almost every choice in the marine arsenals. It is a much bigger problem when a marine is bad - than a gradian being bad. It had to be fixed.

They are pretty good now with 2 wounds - but if you want to give everything else 2 wounds they will be bad again. It is that simple.

My personal opinion is the +1 attack in the first round of combat is unnecessary for the "angels of death" rule. However for ork boys the +1 attacks for 20 man units is also unnecessary so there is tones of rules bloat all over the place.



7th edition, 14pts for a Space Marine tactical. Capable of going toe to toe with Ork boyz that you claimed were great, absolutely out shooting them and almost being able to beat orkz in CC if they got the charge off. You know, the phase in which orkz are supposed to be amazing?

You complain all the time that SMs are pathetic and weak, you claim they are literally bottom tier at the same time as they are winning or placing highly in massive GTs and majors. You move the goal posts and shift arguments when you are proven wrong. SM tacticals weren't AMAZING but they weren't garbage, they competed basically on the same footing as other factions troops choices. I think that is the problem though, in your head you think Marines are the best at everything so therefore they shouldn't "Compete" with other factions troops, they should always be better.

Again, Intercessors out shoot Tau Firewarriors and out fight Genestealers, why aren't you guys spamming the hell out of them? Because yet again, the SM Codex is filled with even more broken units and combinations that make a troop choice beating a dedicated shooting unit AND a dedicated CC unit at the same time look bad.
You are missing the point. Their strength is their 3+ save. If you weapon is designed to kill things without armor - your weapon will underperform.

Intercessors don't outshoot IG vets with plasmaguns. Or necron warriors with gauss reapers/ or flayers.

Certain weapons excel in certain sitations. Firewarriors do more damage to imperial knights than marines do. Khabalites do more damage to high T monsters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Spoiler:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Saying words that sound good together does not make a well reasoned response. Tactical marine has always been bad. It has always been avoided and similarly there has always been a huge amount of people saying they aren't bad ether...It is always the same people too.

Currently - 30 orks has 120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's and 30 str 4 attacks that hit on 5's - 10 intercessors has 61 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's if they have autobolters(the best choice).

Do we really need to go further into which unit does more damage?


Ah, so it's not that you're ignoring SemperMortis's reply, it's that you didn't actually read it.

Because he makes a pretty salient point about comparing Choppa Boyz to Intercessors being an apples-to-oranges comparison, whereas Intercessors out-shoot Shoota Boyz and Assault Intercessors out-fight Slugga Boyz. Comparing melee damage output to 24" shooting output is weird to start with.

I guess if your entire game experience is getting destroyed in casual play and setting up unfair comparisons to paint your own units in the worst possible light, I can understand why you might reach this sort of conclusion. But Marines were absolutely not as awful as you seem to think in 4th-5th, and I see plenty of support for them achieving good tournament results in 7th.

It is a bad point.

Orks boys don't match up well against intercessors because they have ap-0 attacks vs 3+ saves. 10 Intercessors only kills 1 Primaris marine but kills 8 ork boys...They actually have the same quality attack though.
Unless it's T4+, or T3 in an Assault Doctrine army.
Or if they're Assault Intercessors, with an extra attack and everything at at least AP-1.
Or if they're getting buffed by a Captain and Lieutenant.

Or unless the orks are in a 5++ bubble and have +1 str stratagem - or da jumped into combat turn 1 before they got to shoot. The game has aspects that you can't analyze in a discussion. Things like raw damage we can discuss though. Orks boys do a lot more damage than intercessors - not even disputable.
They won't be in a 5++ if they charge T1. Overwatch can still hurt them. Screening hurts them-hell, Marines have Omniscramblers, which makes their charge literally impossible. The S5 Strat is Goff-Locked. And Multicharging has been nerfed.

Edit: Also, I'd still like to point out that you've said you were getting smashed while playing with the lists that won tournaments. I'll be blunt-it sounds like you've got a lot of room to grow as a player, or at least did back in 7th. There's no shame in that-hell, I can think of a very clear instance in 7th where I royally screwed up, and lost the game awfully because of it.

First of all I will just point out. I play Ultramarines no matter what. I'm not gonna play white scars cause they have been rules. Because I have honor. But it literally doesn't matter. What can razor spam do against - fateweaver? Or a unit with 2++ reroll saves? You just lose man.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 18:53:12


 
   
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In My Lab

A 20 point Intercessor does .11 damage per turn to an IK.
A pair of 9 point Fire Warriors does the same.

90% of the cost for the same damage isn't shabby... But they're also a lot less durable.

Edit: As for what to do... What did the tournament winners do?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 18:54:05


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 JNAProductions wrote:
A 20 point Intercessor does .11 damage per turn to an IK.
A pair of 9 point Fire Warriors does the same.

90% of the cost for the same damage isn't shabby... But they're also a lot less durable.

4 shots str 5 hitting on 4's is somehow doing worse than 3 str 4 shots hitting on 3's?


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In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
A 20 point Intercessor does .11 damage per turn to an IK.
A pair of 9 point Fire Warriors does the same.

90% of the cost for the same damage isn't shabby... But they're also a lot less durable.

4 shots str 5 hitting on 4's is somehow doing worse than 3 str 4 shots hitting on 3's?

2 shots. Unless you're putting your Fire Warriors in easy charge range of the Imperial Knight, which results in some VERY DEAD Fire Warriors.

And, of course, if you have the AutoBoltRifles, you can increase that damage by 50% Turns 2 and 3, without even reducing damage T1 and T4-5. Shorter ranged, but 24" isn't bad.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 18:58:00


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 JNAProductions wrote:
2 shots. Unless you're putting your Fire Warriors in easy charge range of the Imperial Knight, which results in some VERY DEAD Fire Warriors.

And, of course, if you have the AutoBoltRifles, you can increase that damage by 50% Turns 2 and 3, without even reducing damage T1 and T4-5. Shorter ranged, but 24" isn't bad.


Should the marine be half the FW?

1 * .666 * .167 * .5 = 0.055
2 * .5 * .333 * .333 = 0.11

EDIT: Oh, I see - presuming standing still. Derp.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 19:00:17


   
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Edit: Ignore this, you Daedalus realized his mistake, so this post is irrelevant.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 19:00:54


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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
A 20 point Intercessor does .11 damage per turn to an IK.
A pair of 9 point Fire Warriors does the same.

90% of the cost for the same damage isn't shabby... But they're also a lot less durable.

4 shots str 5 hitting on 4's is somehow doing worse than 3 str 4 shots hitting on 3's?

2 shots. Unless you're putting your Fire Warriors in easy charge range of the Imperial Knight, which results in some VERY DEAD Fire Warriors.

And, of course, if you have the AutoBoltRifles, you can increase that damage by 50% Turns 2 and 3, without even reducing damage T1 and T4-5. Shorter ranged, but 24" isn't bad.
You compare weapons under ideal conditions to get potential damage.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
A 20 point Intercessor does .11 damage per turn to an IK.
A pair of 9 point Fire Warriors does the same.

90% of the cost for the same damage isn't shabby... But they're also a lot less durable.

4 shots str 5 hitting on 4's is somehow doing worse than 3 str 4 shots hitting on 3's?

2 shots. Unless you're putting your Fire Warriors in easy charge range of the Imperial Knight, which results in some VERY DEAD Fire Warriors.

And, of course, if you have the AutoBoltRifles, you can increase that damage by 50% Turns 2 and 3, without even reducing damage T1 and T4-5. Shorter ranged, but 24" isn't bad.
You compare weapons under ideal conditions to get potential damage.
Okay.

5-man Intercessor Squad does, for 105 points...

30 Shots at S4 AP-1 D1
2 Shots at S6 AP-2 Dd3
All at +1 to-hit, +1 to-wound, RR1s to-hit and to-wound.
Total of 5.67 damage from the Rifles and 1.51 from the Grenades, for 7.18 damage.

12-man Fire Warrior Squad does, for 108 points...

36 shots at S5 AP0 D1
All at +1 to-wound and RR1s to-hit
Total of 3.5 damage.

Edit: Completely butchered the math, since I used a 10-man Intercessor squad. My bad! Is better now.

Intercessors, under optimal circumstances, do twice as good as Firewarriors for slightly cheaper.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 19:16:30


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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
A 20 point Intercessor does .11 damage per turn to an IK.
A pair of 9 point Fire Warriors does the same.

90% of the cost for the same damage isn't shabby... But they're also a lot less durable.

4 shots str 5 hitting on 4's is somehow doing worse than 3 str 4 shots hitting on 3's?

2 shots. Unless you're putting your Fire Warriors in easy charge range of the Imperial Knight, which results in some VERY DEAD Fire Warriors.

And, of course, if you have the AutoBoltRifles, you can increase that damage by 50% Turns 2 and 3, without even reducing damage T1 and T4-5. Shorter ranged, but 24" isn't bad.
You compare weapons under ideal conditions to get potential damage.
Okay.

5-man Intercessor Squad does, for 105 points...

30 Shots at S4 AP-1 D1
2 Shots at S6 AP-2 Dd3
All at +1 to-hit, +1 to-wound, RR1s to-hit and to-wound.
Total of 5.17 damage from the Rifles and 1.51 from the Grenades, for 6.68 damage.

12-man Fire Warrior Squad does, for 108 points...

36 shots at S5 AP0 D1
All at +1 to-wound and RR1s to-hit
Total of 3.5 damage.

Edit: Completely butchered the math, since I used a 10-man Intercessor squad. My bad! Is better now.
I didn't say buff them up with command points. Just assume the unit is using it's to damage profile when it is shooting - otherwise you are doing an unfair comaprsion for an assault weapon over rapid fire weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 19:16:33


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Moving the goal posts much?

Fire Warriors like to sit back at 30" and plink shots forward. They're a fragile and crappy at melee unit-they don't WANT to move forward. Why should I compare that at 15" when the Intercessors do the same damage at 24" (AutoBolt) or at 30" (Bolt)?

Not to mention, Marines have much easier access to buffs-a Captain and Lieutenant increase their damage by more than a third.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 19:18:36


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At two recent GT's, Marines placed 3rd and 4th in one and then came 1st, 2nd and 4th at the other.

But I'm sure we'll have some more posts about how Marines are terrible.
   
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 Bosskelot wrote:
At two recent GT's, Marines placed 3rd and 4th in one and then came 1st, 2nd and 4th at the other.

But I'm sure we'll have some more posts about how Marines are terrible.


Posting good results some of the time is fine. It certainly isn't the same domination of 8.5, but they definitely aren't bad either. The point of the thread, I think, is that they're not the 8.5 boogeyman any longer. The model situation notwithstanding.

   
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Quote from Xenomancer:
Intercessors don't outshoot IG vets with plasmaguns

That's kind of a really weird comparison... Intercessors are a troop choice able to do melee and with rifles geared against (light to medium) infantry (I don't play marines, but from the datasheet I only see S4 weapons options) Vets are elite, squishy and can't really melee and the plasmagun is geared towards heavy infantry/vehicles.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
Moving the goal posts much?

Fire Warriors like to sit back at 30" and plink shots forward. They're a fragile and crappy at melee unit-they don't WANT to move forward. Why should I compare that at 15" when the Intercessors do the same damage at 24" (AutoBolt) or at 30" (Bolt)?

Not to mention, Marines have much easier access to buffs-a Captain and Lieutenant increase their damage by more than a third.

Im pretty sure a knight is moving towards the tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
Quote from Xenomancer:
Intercessors don't outshoot IG vets with plasmaguns

That's kind of a really weird comparison... Intercessors are a troop choice able to do melee and with rifles geared against (light to medium) infantry (I don't play marines, but from the datasheet I only see S4 weapons options) Vets are elite, squishy and can't really melee and the plasmagun is geared towards heavy infantry/vehicles.


Aren't vets troops? They used to be anyways. They don't outshoot tau breachers...just pick a troop that costs less with a better gun. The marines don't "outshoot" them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 20:17:10


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Moving the goal posts much?

Fire Warriors like to sit back at 30" and plink shots forward. They're a fragile and crappy at melee unit-they don't WANT to move forward. Why should I compare that at 15" when the Intercessors do the same damage at 24" (AutoBolt) or at 30" (Bolt)?

Not to mention, Marines have much easier access to buffs-a Captain and Lieutenant increase their damage by more than a third.

Im pretty sure a knight is moving towards the tau.
Castellan. Crusader. Helverin.

And excellent point, Pryo! Something that Xeno himself brought up earlier, then forgot about, apparently.

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Talking about Spacw Marines? Oh no, I hope everyone is being nice...something about that faction seems to provoke people to extreme anger arguing for and against them.
This thread is an interesting read though.
   
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 CommanderWalrus wrote:
Talking about Spacw Marines? Oh no, I hope everyone is being nice...something about that faction seems to provoke people to extreme anger arguing for and against them.
This thread is an interesting read though.

It's cause dakka.
The land where tactical marines havn't been terrible for all existence. Only here too.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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