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Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Of course I might be wrong but isn't that whole "someone claimed Intercessors outfight Boyz in CC" based on this post on page 6?

SemperMortis wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
To me if they can fix the constant feeling that my best isn't as good as their weakest I think it would be better.


I mean....that sounds like an extreme exaggeration/example but yet again I want to point out that point for point a Space Marine intercessor will beat ork boyz in close combat if they get to swing first.

10 intercessors = 200pts, 25 boyz = 200pts

10 intercessors get 31 attacks for 20.66 hits, 10.33 wounds and against orkz that is 8.66 dead orkz, or likely 9.

The remaining 15 boyz get 45 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dmg for 2 dead Primaris Marines and 1 wounded Marine, the Nob swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits 1.33 wounds and a .44 chance to wound 1 Marine, so likely he is fine.

orkz lose 72pts of boyz, Primaris lose 40pts, 50 if you count the half wound and 60pts if you are really unlucky and the Nob inflicts 1 dmg.

Keep in mind, that is assuming the intercessors didn't blast the orkz with their rifles before charging in. Assuming they did that, you can scratch 6-7 more boys off the list before they even get into CC.



If so that kind of spun out of the original context as it was just claimed they win out if going first. Which is still pretty awesome for a troops choice that is intended as shooty unit.
I just mention it because I have the impression the memory about what was said about the Intercessors fighting prowess got a bit ... exagerated moving through the pages

~5600 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't think calling good math - bad math - makes you look any more credible. My mind isn't changing because these are facts. More than open to facts. I am open to different points of view. I am beyond tired of the antimarine bigotry though which is incessant on this forum.

Math is bad when the scenario surrounding the math is unlikely or requires a significant setup to make happen. 30 Boyz DSing near a group of units that can't overwatch and making their charge such that all 30 can attack can happen but it isn't a good baseline to derive anything from. The math can be done correctly and still be bad if it doesn't accurately describe anything.

There are 3 realistc way this can happen in a game. With 1 happening in literally every ork players game provided they have 30 boys and a weirdboy.

Dajump 30 boys. Turn 1 charge with a reroll charge.
Boys move behind cover near objective range ready to pounce.
Endless green tide when they come back at full strength if you fail to kill the whole unit.

These are real scenarios that happen all the time. A boys unit advancing on intercessors in the open? Come on man...that is a pipe dream.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Vancouver, BC

 Xenomancers wrote:
Dajump 30 boys. Turn 1 charge with a reroll charge.

Then we need an analyze this as the cost of 30 boyz plus, say 1/5th the cost of a weird boy and not just as 30 orks. We also need to recognize the impact of deep strike screens, terrain, and other methods your opponent can use to force these boyz to pounce upon a suboptimal target.

Boys move behind cover near objective range ready to pounce.

This is great if your boards include a lot of LoS blocking terrain laid out in corridors that your units can use but that somehow doesn't let the enemy use them. In other scenarios, this might get you closer and with fewer losses but all 30 is still unlikely.

Endless green tide when they come back at full strength if you fail to kill the whole unit.

Not a competitive option and one that relies on your opponent leaving units near a board edge where your new unit can charge them.

These are real scenarios that happen all the time. A boys unit advancing on intercessors in the open? Come on man...that is a pipe dream.

Even in these cases actually getting all 30 boyz to swing requires a fairly large spread out, but not too spread out, unit. The boyz won't get all 120 attacks against a 5-man terminator unit all base to base with their backs against a wall which, in a DA meta, might be a common enough target.

That your math paints getting all 30 boyz across the board and then into a combat where they all swing is what makes it terrible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 19:50:29


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
There are 3 realistc way this can happen in a game. With 1 happening in literally every ork players game provided they have 30 boys and a weirdboy.

Dajump 30 boys. Turn 1 charge with a reroll charge.
Boys move behind cover near objective range ready to pounce.
Endless green tide when they come back at full strength if you fail to kill the whole unit.

These are real scenarios that happen all the time. A boys unit advancing on intercessors in the open? Come on man...that is a pipe dream.


None of those three scenarios will realistically result in more than 1/3 to 1/2 (optimistically) of the unit being able to get into melee. #1 and #3 in particular involve minimum 9" bubbles which, even with an 'Ere We Go re-roll and 3" consolidate, will struggle to get more than a few models into melee. #2 requires your opponent to be so braindead that they waltz right up to the unit such that every member can get into combat.

I question how much you actually play against Orks if you're describing a unit of 30 getting all its members into combat while suffering no casualties as a realistic scenario.

Plus the fact that you keep talking up Boyz versus Intercessors- a shooting unit- while giving the Boys more points' worth and ignoring the comparison to Assault Intercessors, and doing all of this while assuming best-case scenario for the Orks (everyone gets into melee, Intercessors don't get Assault doctrine, Boyz have Skarboyz or CP to play with) really says volumes. Yeah, my Hormagaunts can really beat up Fire Warriors when I have more points than them and can pop a stratagem to fight twice, great unit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 20:03:28


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.

That is BS.
You are arguing facts at this point. The statement that was made was that intercessors both outshoot and out melee boys. It is false

It is so freaking simple.

120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's
vs
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's

Which unit does more damage - is pretty much granted.
on a point per point bases

25 orks still does
100 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's vs (slugga boys)
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's (Intercessors)

THAT IS 3 TIMES as much damage anyways you slice it. Plus you can just make them skarboys to give them str 5 which puts things even more in the orks favor. Plus they can fight twice too. Wanna show me where my math is wrong wise guy? is 100 more than 31? Do I have that right?

All I can do is laugh at this point. You all act like I am an epic troll or something but you are actually trolling me
.
Oh, not Assault Intercessors? Just regular Intercessors? So a melee focused unit is better in melee than a not-melee focused unit? That's your "point"?

What madness is this? Xenomadness!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






#1 Literally every boy should be getting into melee with something provided you completed the charge or the unit you are charging is too small. Charging more than one unit is actually just fine when you have 120 attacks cause you are going to overkill a 5 man unit anyways.

#2 If you play 9th edition this is actually a really common occurrence.

#3 I literally corrected the attacks total to 100 attacks for 25 orks for equal point value.
Even with 25 orks they still do tripple the melee damage. You know assault doctrine is turn 3-4 right? You expect a full unit of marines to be alive turn 4 and this isnt a route?

Hormagants are good but ork boys are bad? LOL

Hormas > boys?
They dont even have a gun and -1s and T over a boy for 2 less points.

A hormagant should be like 4 points with its current abilities - for some reason it costs more than a termagant....


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

It's amazing how people conveniently forget about engagement rules. Even if those 30 boyz manage to charge without losing a single dude only 10ish of them will actually fight. Which means 40 attacks, not really that much better than the 10 man Assault Intercessor squad, uh? In fact due to having AP-1 and assault doctrines those Intercessors should be way more killy even in combat than 30 ork boyz.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.

That is BS.
You are arguing facts at this point. The statement that was made was that intercessors both outshoot and out melee boys. It is false

It is so freaking simple.

120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's
vs
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's

Which unit does more damage - is pretty much granted.
on a point per point bases

25 orks still does
100 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's vs (slugga boys)
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's (Intercessors)

THAT IS 3 TIMES as much damage anyways you slice it. Plus you can just make them skarboys to give them str 5 which puts things even more in the orks favor. Plus they can fight twice too. Wanna show me where my math is wrong wise guy? is 100 more than 31? Do I have that right?

All I can do is laugh at this point. You all act like I am an epic troll or something but you are actually trolling me
.
Oh, not Assault Intercessors? Just regular Intercessors? So a melee focused unit is better in melee than a not-melee focused unit? That's your "point"?

What madness is this? Xenomadness!

Boys still do more damage than assault Intercessors. Math is already done. Assault intercessors also don't have DA jump - they aren't really a viable unit - they only apear in full melee BT lists.
41 str 4 ap1 attacks does not do more damage than 100 str 4 ap0 attacks.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.

That is BS.
You are arguing facts at this point. The statement that was made was that intercessors both outshoot and out melee boys. It is false

It is so freaking simple.

120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's
vs
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's

Which unit does more damage - is pretty much granted.
on a point per point bases

25 orks still does
100 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's vs (slugga boys)
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's (Intercessors)

THAT IS 3 TIMES as much damage anyways you slice it. Plus you can just make them skarboys to give them str 5 which puts things even more in the orks favor. Plus they can fight twice too. Wanna show me where my math is wrong wise guy? is 100 more than 31? Do I have that right?

All I can do is laugh at this point. You all act like I am an epic troll or something but you are actually trolling me
.
Oh, not Assault Intercessors? Just regular Intercessors? So a melee focused unit is better in melee than a not-melee focused unit? That's your "point"?

What madness is this? Xenomadness!

Boys still do more damage than assault Intercessors. Math is already done. Assault intercessors also don't have DA jump - they aren't really a viable unit - they only apear in full melee BT lists.
41 str 4 ap1 attacks does not do more damage than 100 str 4 ap0 attacks.
The Boyz also cost more, apparently. So that's also not any sort of problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 20:41:27


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Blackie wrote:
It's amazing how people conveniently forget about engagement rules. Even if those 30 boyz manage to charge without losing a single dude only 10ish of them will actually fight. Which means 40 attacks, not really that much better than the 10 man Assault Intercessor squad, uh? In fact due to having AP-1 and assault doctrines those Intercessors should be way more killy even in combat than 30 ork boyz.
What are they charging? An ant?
5 Marines in a line touching base to base (which no one does - you spread out an inch to cover more territory - extend aura - get to objectives faster excetra) Lets just say for arguyements sake though. They are base to base

*****

Fairly easy

You get a line of 7 up front that can fight and 7 behind them and 4 on each side because you have a 3 inch pile.

7+7+8 in combat - is well within reason - with just a 9 rolled on your charge.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.

That is BS.
You are arguing facts at this point. The statement that was made was that intercessors both outshoot and out melee boys. It is false

It is so freaking simple.

120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's
vs
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's

Which unit does more damage - is pretty much granted.
on a point per point bases

25 orks still does
100 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's vs (slugga boys)
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's (Intercessors)

THAT IS 3 TIMES as much damage anyways you slice it. Plus you can just make them skarboys to give them str 5 which puts things even more in the orks favor. Plus they can fight twice too. Wanna show me where my math is wrong wise guy? is 100 more than 31? Do I have that right?

All I can do is laugh at this point. You all act like I am an epic troll or something but you are actually trolling me
.
Oh, not Assault Intercessors? Just regular Intercessors? So a melee focused unit is better in melee than a not-melee focused unit? That's your "point"?

What madness is this? Xenomadness!

Boys still do more damage than assault Intercessors. Math is already done. Assault intercessors also don't have DA jump - they aren't really a viable unit - they only apear in full melee BT lists.
41 str 4 ap1 attacks does not do more damage than 100 str 4 ap0 attacks.
The Boyz also cost more, apparently. So that's also not any sort of problem.

Oh thats right assault intercessors are 19 not 20. So 96 attacks...do you think that makes a difference? Cause it doesn't. It is still significantly over double the number of attacks. The only time ap-1 can make up for having half the number of attacks is vs a 2+ save and even in this case - Boys still outperform even vs 2+ saves. These aren't even Skarboys ether.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 20:47:13


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






And the Intercessors are more durable to small arms and low AP attacks, etc. etc.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Blackie wrote:
It's amazing how people conveniently forget about engagement rules. Even if those 30 boyz manage to charge without losing a single dude only 10ish of them will actually fight. Which means 40 attacks, not really that much better than the 10 man Assault Intercessor squad, uh? In fact due to having AP-1 and assault doctrines those Intercessors should be way more killy even in combat than 30 ork boyz.


It depends on a ton of factors. People also forget there is a 3" pile-in.

Are the boyz on 25mm or 32mm? What was the charge roll? How are the marines deployed?

Without considering a good pile-in it looks likely that almost 20 can easily fit when 25mm.



And not too many fewer when 32mm.


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Man, god bless the spirits of Dakka. ever since Ishagu left I've been really missing the mantle of the great dakka spirit of "No, It's The Rest Of The World That's Wrong!!!" i'm glad it's fully possessed another host, that's one of my favorites.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Are the boyz on 25mm or 32mm? What was the charge roll? How are the marines deployed?



32mm bases for competitive games as that's what the boyz' current base size is. How the charged unit is positioned and terrain are critical aspects. Tipycally it's just 10-12 boyz that can actually fight, sometimes they can be more, it's definitely possible, althought it's not easy at all.

Not to mention that we're discussing offensive potential, not just SM vs orks match ups. While it may be easier to surround 5 dudes on 32mm bases and let more than 10 boyz to fight, it'd be harder to get the same amount of boyz into combat range against models with bigger sizes/bases. So units of 10 dudes will actually always fight at their best potential, 20-30 orks will likely not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 21:08:48


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 the_scotsman wrote:
Man, god bless the spirits of Dakka. ever since Ishagu left I've been really missing the mantle of the great dakka spirit of "No, It's The Rest Of The World That's Wrong!!!" i'm glad it's fully possessed another host, that's one of my favorites.


I know right..
My mind is still reeling from the last few pages that I've read.

I hope this mind virus is not contagious.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Intercessors are 200 points. We'll add 10 for the two Grenade Launchers, and a free Chainsword.

30 Orks are 240 points. We will account for the Nob, who will get dual Choppas.

Orks go first.

Orks T1-they move up 5+1d6".
Intercessors T1-they stand still and double tap, dealing 6.67 (Rifles)+2.22 (Launchers) damage, for 8.89 dead Orks.

Orks T2-they move up again, having moved around 17" on average. This puts them at least 7" away from the Intercessors.
Intercessors T2-walk up 6" for an easy charge, then shoot. They do a little more damage, thanks to AP-1 on the Launchers now, for 6.67 (Rifles)+2.67 (Launchers), for 9.34 more dead Boys. Then, their charge-27 attacks at AP0, 5 at AP-1. 7.5 (unarmed)+1.67 (Chainsword), for 9.17 dead Boys. Total damage so far is 27.4, for 2 Boys and a Nob left.
Orks fight back. I'll give them Skarboys, for fun. 11 attacks at S5, for 1.63 wounds.

Orks T3. They shoot with their two pistols, for .13 damage, but they don't get to fight first, due to 9th edition rules changes. Intercessors, having lost at most one model, wipe the remaining 4 wounds with ease.

Edit: Also, it could've been two squads of 5 Intercessors. Lose nothing, gain two attacks, and make 10 attacks at AP-1 instead of 5.

Edit II: Yeah, let me check the math, I think I might've goofed somewhere.

Edit III: No, it's clean. Though if we had two Sarges with Chainswords, we increase damage by 2.5 points, which would leave just the Nob.
That is what happens when you bring the wrong tool to do the job.

12 Orkboyz with a Two Killsaws on the Nob are 111 points. A Trukk is 65 points. We now have 176 points of Trukk Boyz heading across the 24" of battlefield to get to the 9 Intercessors including Sgt with an Astartes Chainsword (180 points).

  • The Trukk advances 12+d6 inches towards the Intercessors and lets loose with it's Big Shoota for 0.13 Wounds (aka nothing).
  • Intercessors remains stationary and fire 18 Bolt Rifle shots at the Trukk for 2.66 Wounds, leaving it unimpressed.
  • The Boyz disembark 3" and move up 5", leaving them 6-d6 inches from the Intercessors. They fire their 11 Sluggas at the Intercessors (Nob has no Slugga) for 1.43 wounds before charging. Let's assume they make the 6-d6" charge. They then pile-in 3" allowing all 12 Orks to attack. The Nob goes first because he's the best and does 3.33 Wounds with 4 Killsaw attacks. The 11 Boyz do 3.67 wounds with their 33 Choppa attacks. That's 1.43+3.33+3.67= 8.43 wounds, killing 4 Intercessors.
  • I forgot the Trukk moved upped 12" to put itself just over 1" from the Intercessors, fired it's Big Shoota (0.24 Wounds) and then charged in also for 0.22 Wounds. Added to the Boyz we are up to 8.89 Wounds. Interesting note is a 5 Point Wreckin' ball increases the Trukk to 0.88 Wounds in melee.
  • The 5 Intercessors remaining pile-in (as if they need to) and dish out 12 Close Combat Weapon attacks plus 5 Astartes Chainsword attacks for 5 Wounds, reducing the Orks to 7 models.
  • The Intercessors pull out their Bolt Pistols and fire at the Boyz doing 1.38 Wounds, reducing the Orks to 6 models.
  • Ongoing combat see the Boyz strike first. The Nob does another 3.33 Wounds while the 5 Boyz do 1.67, for 5 Wounds. Bringing the total to 13.89 total wounds (or 14.02 if we include that first round Big Shoota attack).
  • The 3 Intercessors get 4 CCW and 4 SCS attacks for 2.44 wounds, giving a grand total of 8.83 wounds to the Orks.
  • The Trukk does another 0.22 Wounds, putting 14.11 Wounds on Intercessors

  • So after two turns of combat, we have 14.11 Wounds against 9 Intercessors, 8.83 Wounds against 11 Ork Boyz, and 2.66 Wounds against an Ork Trukk. The Orks are krumpin' some humies!

    Of course, nobody uses Trukk Boyz nor fights on Planet Bowling Ball with 180 points of models on the battlefield exactly 24" apart

       
    Made in au
    Dakka Veteran





    Lets follow his same logic.

    For less than double the points intecessors have over 3x the save! Holy SHEESUS that's tanky. They even have double the wounds!

    How is this fair? I'm paying 8 points for a 6+ and he's paying around double for a 3x the save and 2x the wounds?!!??!

    Lets not mention about all that extra (EXTRA!) range and AP on attacks. How is this fair? Intercesssors are amasing!

    Intercsemors can even do tranz uman fisiology for a doubling of their wounds! Leading to a double of the double ork boy wounds for a handful of meagre points.

    All in all, Intecessors have double the range, four times (4x!) as many wounds as Orcs, triple the armor save and lets not get started on the other things that are always there. Captains for rerolls, luitenants for rerolls and an ever present victims complex for posting!
       
    Made in gb
    Executing Exarch






     Eonfuzz wrote:
    Lets follow his same logic.

    For less than double the points intecessors have over 3x the save! Holy SHEESUS that's tanky. They even have double the wounds!

    How is this fair? I'm paying 8 points for a 6+ and he's paying around double for a 3x the save and 2x the wounds?!!??!

    Lets not mention about all that extra (EXTRA!) range and AP on attacks. How is this fair? Intercesssors are amasing!

    Intercsemors can even do tranz uman fisiology for a doubling of their wounds! Leading to a double of the double ork boy wounds for a handful of meagre points.

    All in all, Intecessors have double the range, four times (4x!) as many wounds as Orcs, triple the armor save and lets not get started on the other things that are always there. Captains for rerolls, luitenants for rerolls and an ever present victims complex for posting!


    Nonsense.
    Intercessors are trash tier unit. Absolute garbage. They dont one shot a tank, or kill a hive tyran in combat. Absolute garbage.

    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

    Eldar- 4436 pts


    AngryAngel80 wrote:
    I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


     Eonfuzz wrote:


    I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


    "A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
       
    Made in us
    Fixture of Dakka





     Blackie wrote:
     Daedalus81 wrote:


    Are the boyz on 25mm or 32mm? What was the charge roll? How are the marines deployed?



    32mm bases for competitive games as that's what the boyz' current base size is. How the charged unit is positioned and terrain are critical aspects. Tipycally it's just 10-12 boyz that can actually fight, sometimes they can be more, it's definitely possible, althought it's not easy at all.

    Not to mention that we're discussing offensive potential, not just SM vs orks match ups. While it may be easier to surround 5 dudes on 32mm bases and let more than 10 boyz to fight, it'd be harder to get the same amount of boyz into combat range against models with bigger sizes/bases. So units of 10 dudes will actually always fight at their best potential, 20-30 orks will likely not.


    I agree that there's a lot of variables. I am uncertain if I agree that 10 to 12 is the typical range of models that can get in. On planet bowling ball 18 32 mm is feasible start pile-in from 0.9". If we split the difference at like 15 then the boyz are still decent.

    If you are capable of delivering them the marines will quickly lose 1/3 to 1/2 of their attacks the following turn and potentially be face with an insurmountable horde. Yes, marines will fight more effectively against opponents with smaller geometry, but I don't think that's a problem the boyz concern themselves with.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     the_scotsman wrote:
    Man, god bless the spirits of Dakka. ever since Ishagu left I've been really missing the mantle of the great dakka spirit of "No, It's The Rest Of The World That's Wrong!!!" i'm glad it's fully possessed another host, that's one of my favorites.


    Super Nintendo Chalmers!

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 00:37:56


       
    Made in us
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    Tacoma, WA, USA

     Eonfuzz wrote:
    Lets follow his same logic.

    For less than double the points intecessors have over 3x the save! Holy SHEESUS that's tanky. They even have double the wounds!
    Less than double the points? A 20 point Intercessor is less than double the points of an 8 point Ork Boy?

    Or did you mean the 18 point Tactical Marine is less than double the points of an 8 Point Boy?

    If you are going to go on an ragefulled rant, at least get your number right.
       
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     alextroy wrote:
     Eonfuzz wrote:
    Lets follow his same logic.

    For less than double the points intecessors have over 3x the save! Holy SHEESUS that's tanky. They even have double the wounds!
    Less than double the points? A 20 point Intercessor is less than double the points of an 8 point Ork Boy?

    Or did you mean the 18 point Tactical Marine is less than double the points of an 8 Point Boy?

    If you are going to go on an ragefulled rant, at least get your number right.



    It's almost like I'm being ironic, xeno got his points incorrect in his ranting too.
       
    Made in us
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    Annandale, VA

     Xenomancers wrote:
    Hormagants are good but ork boys are bad? LOL


    It is equal parts amusing and frustrating to watch you miss the obvious sarcasm that was based on your logic.

    Yeah, Hormagaunts start to look pretty damn good if you
    1. Cherry-pick a comparison to a shooting unit, rather than something more similar to them.
    2. Give them more points than the shooting unit.
    3. Give them force-multiplier CP abilities as part of the calculation.
    4. Ignore the externalities that make getting every single model into melee unlikely to occur, or just assume that they have a reliable delivery mechanism but don't account for its cost.

    It's almost like it's not a fair comparison, and doesn't give a good idea of their actual capabilities.

    Also, exalt for Eonfuzz; that's exactly how it feels.
       
    Made in us
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     Eonfuzz wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
     Eonfuzz wrote:
    Lets follow his same logic.

    For less than double the points intecessors have over 3x the save! Holy SHEESUS that's tanky. They even have double the wounds!
    Less than double the points? A 20 point Intercessor is less than double the points of an 8 point Ork Boy?

    Or did you mean the 18 point Tactical Marine is less than double the points of an 8 Point Boy?

    If you are going to go on an ragefulled rant, at least get your number right.



    It's almost like I'm being ironic, xeno got his points incorrect in his ranting too.

    Predictable rebuttal. Granted you aren't being intellectually honest and I am as I have corrected errors when they get made. You'll never see me say to anyone - oh your point is BS so I'll just spout BS.

    You are making the same claim that has been argued from the start as being bunk. You are overlooking the fact ork boys do way more damage in combat than marines of pretty much any type - at least out of the intercessors we have been posting the data on.

    Daedalus also disproved (in picture form) bunk the contention that you can't get ork units to bear on a target - even against small units (which you wont be going for anyways) 30 Goff scarboys can kill literally 1 shot a knight - intercessors can't do that.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     catbarf wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    Hormagants are good but ork boys are bad? LOL


    It is equal parts amusing and frustrating to watch you miss the obvious sarcasm that was based on your logic.

    Yeah, Hormagaunts start to look pretty damn good if you
    1. Cherry-pick a comparison to a shooting unit, rather than something more similar to them.
    2. Give them more points than the shooting unit.
    3. Give them force-multiplier CP abilities as part of the calculation.
    4. Ignore the externalities that make getting every single model into melee unlikely to occur, or just assume that they have a reliable delivery mechanism but don't account for its cost.

    It's almost like it's not a fair comparison, and doesn't give a good idea of their actual capabilities.

    Also, exalt for Eonfuzz; that's exactly how it feels.

    Okay so - you agree - hormagants are a bad unit - worse than boys - which is what I claimed. I am glad we agree on that.

    Also just in fairness - the calculations were done not including pregame expenditure of CP. This is a game where you can expect certain stratagems though and stratagems effect how units are used. To not even mention them in the discussion would just be silly. Considering - stratagems actually and obviously contribute to a units point cost as well.

    Example - I would never take intercessors over tactical marines if not for stratagems. Tacitcals are just better because they are cheaper can can take a heavy weapon. Like...A multi melta? Or grav cannon. You take intercessors because they can use THP and Rapid Fire stratagems. You'd never take ork boys en mass in this eddition if they didn't have the host of stratagems (and support abilities) they have available to them ether.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/21 14:15:10


    If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
    - Fox Mulder 
       
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    EDIT: Forget about it (posted something, read again, made no sense, sorry)

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/21 14:04:33


    ~5600 build and painted 
       
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     Xenomancers wrote:
    30 Goff scarboys can kill literally 1 shot a knight

    How?

    And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

    Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
       
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     Insectum7 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    30 Goff scarboys can kill literally 1 shot a knight

    How?


    Yeah i cant wait to hear about these knights that have 10 wounds.

    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
    Made in us
    Omnipotent Necron Overlord






     Insectum7 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    30 Goff scarboys can kill literally 1 shot a knight

    How?

    They need a nob to do it but they average about 12 damage per round and they can fight twice. It would require a small amount of luck. Or reroll 1's buff from gazz to really garantee it.

    If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
    - Fox Mulder 
       
    Made in us
    Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






     Xenomancers wrote:
     Insectum7 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    30 Goff scarboys can kill literally 1 shot a knight

    How?

    They need a nob to do it but they average about 12 damage per round and they can fight twice. It would require a small amount of luck. Or reroll 1's buff from gazz to really garantee it.


    They also need the knight to not attack them back before the end of the fight phase killing 7 of them with its feet, but, details.

    "I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

    -the_scotsman"

    -ERJAK 
       
    Made in us
    Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






    Tbh Orks swarming and bringing down a knight doesn't feel Iike a problem to me after GW took away the ability of Tankbustas to all plant their meltabomb equivalents on vehicles.

    Or an issue with the wound chart.

    One thing you won't hear me say is how it makes Orks broken in comparison to Intercessors.

    Also, how much is that squad of Skarboyz and Nob?

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/21 15:17:13


    And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

    Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
       
    Made in it
    Gargantuan Gargant




    Italy

     the_scotsman wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Insectum7 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    30 Goff scarboys can kill literally 1 shot a knight

    How?

    They need a nob to do it but they average about 12 damage per round and they can fight twice. It would require a small amount of luck. Or reroll 1's buff from gazz to really garantee it.


    They also need the knight to not attack them back before the end of the fight phase killing 7 of them with its feet, but, details.


    And also 4 CPs invested, 1 for Skarboyz and 3 for fighting twice. Plus buffs from other characters, like the cheap 300ppm Ghaz. And, of course, all the models in the squad need to get into engagement range, without suffering a single casualty before and after the knight strikes. At that point the whole combination is way more expensive than a knghit, hard to make it work at full potential, and still not able to one shot it unless rolling insanely luckily.

    Orks 7000
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