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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.
I mean, even if we accept his numbers at face value...

A fragile melee unit does more damage in melee than a durable shooting unit. That's not a sign that's something wrong.

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Italy

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Nah, when thir codex was released all the reviews put them top tiers. Also on Goonhammer if I remeber correctly. And most of those soups were actually full drukhari lists with a single crafworlds psyker. Drukhari were top tiers for a few months, then remained competitive through soups.


It's a pretty complex history, because you have to unravel Ynnari as well as CW spells being able to affect them - both went away at some point. There was still a lot of useful things in the DE book like Grots and Dissies, but the lists so far in 9th have quite a bit of variety compared to lists of yore.


But we can say the same things about many other codexes in 8th, when in fact it was the age of soups. Not many top armies were really top by using a single codex. Drukhari at first were one of those who could afford avoing soups, as their 8th codex was pretty solid, but then people adapted and only soups remained highly competitive.

Now soups are basically gone, but I think lots of people are simply overreacting to the new drukhari codex. Mostly because they refuse to adapt against something that isn't based on the primaris/gravis profiles.

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 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.

That is BS.
You are arguing facts at this point. The statement that was made was that intercessors both outshoot and out melee boys. It is false

It is so freaking simple.

120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's
vs
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's

Which unit does more damage - is pretty much granted.
on a point per point bases

25 orks still does
100 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's vs (slugga boys)
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's (Intercessors)

THAT IS 3 TIMES as much damage anyways you slice it. Plus you can just make them skarboys to give them str 5 which puts things even more in the orks favor. Plus they can fight twice too. Wanna show me where my math is wrong wise guy? is 100 more than 31? Do I have that right?

All I can do is laugh at this point. You all act like I am an epic troll or something but you are actually trolling me.



If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.

That is BS.
You are arguing facts at this point. The statement that was made was that intercessors both outshoot and out melee boys. It is false

It is so freaking simple.

120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's
vs
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's

Which unit does more damage - is pretty much granted.
on a point per point bases

25 orks still does
100 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's vs (slugga boys)
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's (Intercessors)

THAT IS 3 TIMES as much damage anyways you slice it. Plus you can just make them skarboys to give them str 5 which puts things even more in the orks favor. Plus they can fight twice too. Wanna show me where my math is wrong wise guy? is 100 more than 31? Do I have that right?

All I can do is laugh at this point. You all act like I am an epic troll or something but you are actually trolling me.


If the unit can make it melee combat without losing any models.
If every model gets to attack, and none are left out of range.

Neither of those are guaranteed in the slightest-and as I said literally earlier this page, Intercessors are a durable shooting unit. They SHOULD NOT have the same melee power as a fragile melee unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 17:47:58


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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.
I mean, even if we accept his numbers at face value...

A fragile melee unit does more damage in melee than a durable shooting unit. That's not a sign that's something wrong.

It is a durable multi purpose unit. They do literally Identical damage in melee and shooting in most cases. Plus t4 3+ save with 2 wounds is about the most common profile to build against in the game and as a result rarely ever gets to use it's 2 wound stat (cause its easy to take away) and -AP is literally everywhere.

Also you are missing the point. They are saying something is wrong with the intercessors LOL. or that ork boys need big buffs to compete with intercessors. Nah...They don't. If you just use them right they do just fine against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You really are dense. My statement is fact. Ork boys do more melee damage by a factor of 2-3 between Intercessors even when you factor in stratagems. Disprove me. Or Go away. You can't argue with facts. This is why they are included in a highly competitive build which whens events.
Pretty sure it's been shown that your math is either wrong or disingenuous at this point.

That is BS.
You are arguing facts at this point. The statement that was made was that intercessors both outshoot and out melee boys. It is false

It is so freaking simple.

120 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's
vs
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's

Which unit does more damage - is pretty much granted.
on a point per point bases

25 orks still does
100 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's vs (slugga boys)
31 str 4 attacks that hit on 3's (Intercessors)

THAT IS 3 TIMES as much damage anyways you slice it. Plus you can just make them skarboys to give them str 5 which puts things even more in the orks favor. Plus they can fight twice too. Wanna show me where my math is wrong wise guy? is 100 more than 31? Do I have that right?

All I can do is laugh at this point. You all act like I am an epic troll or something but you are actually trolling me.


If the unit can make it melee combat without losing any models.
If every model gets to attack, and none are left out of range.

Neither of those are guaranteed in the slightest-and as I said literally earlier this page, Intercessors are a durable shooting unit. They SHOULD NOT have the same melee power as a fragile melee unit.
Its not the same...it is 3 times less. LOL.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 17:55:13


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
But we can say the same things about many other codexes in 8th, when in fact it was the age of soups. Not many top armies were really top by using a single codex. Drukhari at first were one of those who could afford avoing soups, as their 8th codex was pretty solid, but then people adapted and only soups remained highly competitive.

Now soups are basically gone, but I think lots of people are simply overreacting to the new drukhari codex. Mostly because they refuse to adapt against something that isn't based on the primaris/gravis profiles.


I agree that people need to adapt, but they can't adapt so much that they fall off the anti-marine side. I'm certain DE will be here to stay.

   
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In My Lab

10 Intercessors are 200 points. We'll add 10 for the two Grenade Launchers, and a free Chainsword.

30 Orks are 240 points. We will account for the Nob, who will get dual Choppas.

Orks go first.

Orks T1-they move up 5+1d6".
Intercessors T1-they stand still and double tap, dealing 6.67 (Rifles)+2.22 (Launchers) damage, for 8.89 dead Orks.

Orks T2-they move up again, having moved around 17" on average. This puts them at least 7" away from the Intercessors.
Intercessors T2-walk up 6" for an easy charge, then shoot. They do a little more damage, thanks to AP-1 on the Launchers now, for 6.67 (Rifles)+2.67 (Launchers), for 9.34 more dead Boys. Then, their charge-27 attacks at AP0, 5 at AP-1. 7.5 (unarmed)+1.67 (Chainsword), for 9.17 dead Boys. Total damage so far is 27.4, for 2 Boys and a Nob left.
Orks fight back. I'll give them Skarboys, for fun. 11 attacks at S5, for 1.63 wounds.

Orks T3. They shoot with their two pistols, for .13 damage, but they don't get to fight first, due to 9th edition rules changes. Intercessors, having lost at most one model, wipe the remaining 4 wounds with ease.

Edit: Also, it could've been two squads of 5 Intercessors. Lose nothing, gain two attacks, and make 10 attacks at AP-1 instead of 5.

Edit II: Yeah, let me check the math, I think I might've goofed somewhere.

Edit III: No, it's clean. Though if we had two Sarges with Chainswords, we increase damage by 2.5 points, which would leave just the Nob.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 18:13:17


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That is a nice story that doesn't matter at all because that is not how the game works and if you compare literally any unit with strong shooting this way against a foot slogging melee unit with no armor - it is going to go that way.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
That is a nice story that doesn't matter at all because that is not how the game works and if you compare literally any unit with strong shooting this way against a foot slogging melee unit with no armor - it is going to go that way.

See, that's exactly the response I expected.

You're saying that, shock bloody horror, REAL GAME SITUATIONS don't map one-to-one to mathematical analysis?

My god! But that means a unit that, in theory, has 120+ attacks, but struggles to bring those attacks to bear, might not ACTUALLY be three times as damaging as a unit that can bring its power to bear more effectively?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
If the unit can make it melee combat without losing any models.
If every model gets to attack, and none are left out of range.


Yea, but strictly speaking he's right in the sense that demonstrates why mathammer can be really bad.

That also doesn't mean boyz are incapable.

   
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In My Lab

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
If the unit can make it melee combat without losing any models.
If every model gets to attack, and none are left out of range.


Yea, but strictly speaking he's right in the sense that demonstrates why mathammer can be really bad.

That also doesn't mean boyz are incapable.
No, Boys are a decent enough unit. They're about where, in my opinion, a Troop should be. I'd like a little more customization, but they're not bad.

Intercessors, though, are significantly ABOVE where a Troop should be. Or units in general. They're a really strong unit.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
Intercessors, though, are significantly ABOVE where a Troop should be. Or units in general. They're a really strong unit.


Yes, probably, but I think they also need to be, because they don't contribute much to the overall list unless someone really builds into them.

   
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In My Lab

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Intercessors, though, are significantly ABOVE where a Troop should be. Or units in general. They're a really strong unit.


Yes, probably, but I think they also need to be, because they don't contribute much to the overall list unless someone really builds into them.
I don't see your logic. At all.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Intercessors, though, are significantly ABOVE where a Troop should be. Or units in general. They're a really strong unit.


Yes, probably, but I think they also need to be, because they don't contribute much to the overall list unless someone really builds into them.


And other armies' Troops units don't need to be strong units?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't see your logic. At all.


You're focusing too much on the individual unit rather than how the army operates as a force on the table and how well they absorb losses. e.g. A disintegrator hitting a marine is a whole different problem than when it hits boyz.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
And other armies' Troops units don't need to be strong units?


Boyz could use a few tweaks, but the gap isn't so large that there is a problem - in my opinion.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 18:27:26


   
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Yeah this whole "intercessors need to be strong so they can contribute, but other armies shouldn't have troops who contribute" take is weird.
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah this whole "intercessors need to be strong so they can contribute, but other armies shouldn't have troops who contribute" take is weird.


Boyz do contribute. The tangent you guys are on is weird.

   
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In My Lab

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah this whole "intercessors need to be strong so they can contribute, but other armies shouldn't have troops who contribute" take is weird.


Boyz do contribute. The tangent you guys are on is weird.
So do Intercessors. In fact, they can contribute more, since they can contribute from 24” or more, as compared to Boys’ 18” crappy shooting and their decent melee.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Intercessors, though, are significantly ABOVE where a Troop should be. Or units in general. They're a really strong unit.


Yes, probably, but I think they also need to be, because they don't contribute much to the overall list unless someone really builds into them.


This quote seemed to imply that intercessors should be stronger than Boyz because otherwise they don't contribute.

Thusly implying that Boyz also don't contribute, since they aren't as strong as intercessors.
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
So do Intercessors. In fact, they can contribute more, since they can contribute from 24” or more, as compared to Boys’ 18” crappy shooting and their decent melee.


Intercessors are probably the least popular of the troops at present. You'll likely never see ten of them in a unit - and likely never more then 5 in any of the troop selections. 5 marines here and there do not make a crucial impact with their ranged damage - to hold you need to move and to shoot you need to move to angle around terrain. Picking up an ork or two is not significant.

If someone wanted to bring a crapload of intercessors it would be inherently risky to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This quote seemed to imply that intercessors should be stronger than Boyz because otherwise they don't contribute.

Thusly implying that Boyz also don't contribute, since they aren't as strong as intercessors.


It isn't a linear logic problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 18:48:03


   
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In My Lab

Why so? They do good damage at range and in melee, while being nicely durable.

Yes, the Codex has other, better options-but that doesn’t make Intercessors bad.

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Vancouver, BC

 JNAProductions wrote:
10 Intercessors are 200 points. We'll add 10 for the two Grenade Launchers, and a free Chainsword.

30 Orks are 240 points. We will account for the Nob, who will get dual Choppas.

Orks go first.

Orks T1-they move up 5+1d6".
Intercessors T1-they stand still and double tap, dealing 6.67 (Rifles)+2.22 (Launchers) damage, for 8.89 dead Orks.

Orks T2-they move up again, having moved around 17" on average. This puts them at least 7" away from the Intercessors.
Intercessors T2-walk up 6" for an easy charge, then shoot. They do a little more damage, thanks to AP-1 on the Launchers now, for 6.67 (Rifles)+2.67 (Launchers), for 9.34 more dead Boys. Then, their charge-27 attacks at AP0, 5 at AP-1. 7.5 (unarmed)+1.67 (Chainsword), for 9.17 dead Boys. Total damage so far is 27.4, for 2 Boys and a Nob left.
Orks fight back. I'll give them Skarboys, for fun. 11 attacks at S5, for 1.63 wounds.

Orks T3. They shoot with their two pistols, for .13 damage, but they don't get to fight first, due to 9th edition rules changes. Intercessors, having lost at most one model, wipe the remaining 4 wounds with ease.

Edit: Also, it could've been two squads of 5 Intercessors. Lose nothing, gain two attacks, and make 10 attacks at AP-1 instead of 5.

I get what you're trying to drill into Xeno's head with this but you've put the Boyz in just about the worst possible scenario here.

1) Intercessors would move up because they have to take objectives or screen for other units. A unit of intercessors just standing back and shooting is very 8th edition and doesn't match actual play.

2) The orks wouldn't want to move in such a way as to give the Intercessors a likely charge. They'd likely want to end 10 or 11 inches from the target and either force them to fall back, off an objective, risk a long charge, or stand and take the charge next turn.

3) This leaves 11 boyz and the nob to counter-attack in even this awful no cover or LoS blocking scenario and getting even 15 or 20 boyz to a target should be possible especially if you position other threats that require shooting that would otherwise kill a brick of boyz.

TLDR: This math is very white room, planet bowling ball, and 8th edition and doesn't do a good job of reflecting play at any level.
   
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In My Lab

Just like claiming that Orks have three times the melee damage output of Intercessors without accounting for anything else. That’s my point.

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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Intercessors, though, are significantly ABOVE where a Troop should be. Or units in general. They're a really strong unit.


Yes, probably, but I think they also need to be, because they don't contribute much to the overall list unless someone really builds into them.


This quote seemed to imply that intercessors should be stronger than Boyz because otherwise they don't contribute.

Thusly implying that Boyz also don't contribute, since they aren't as strong as intercessors.

Intercessors should contribute more from turn 1 because they take a big risk of dying in droves to the right weapons while being really expensive. Orks dont really care what you shoot at them. They only care about the number of shots really. So there is 1 counter to orks. Lots of shots. You can counter marines with AP - weapon damage - and high str attacks go a lot farther against higher point per wound units (and ofc) lots of shots works too - the only thing marines do really well against is 0AP attacks - which ork boys have a lot of.

There is literally no issue with ork boys. You wanna talk about a bad unit. A hormagant is a bad unit. That unit needs a big buff. Ork boys though...They are totally fine. They shouldn't be buffed at all because they are in winning lists literally being spammed. That is a sign that a unit is fine. Perhaps with a nerf to some other things like "dajump" and "KFF" they could see some improvement or point drops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Just like claiming that Orks have three times the melee damage output of Intercessors without accounting for anything else. That’s my point.
I was only disproving the nonsense that intercessors have anywhere near the damage output of orks in melee. I wasn't making any other kind of claim. Other than maybe that intercessors are better than ork boys in general atm...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 18:53:55


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
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Vancouver, BC

 JNAProductions wrote:
Why so? They do good damage at range and in melee, while being nicely durable.

Yes, the Codex has other, better options-but that doesn’t make Intercessors bad.

Yes, it does. If you look at Codex SM in isolation you're not going to see a lot of compelling reasons to take Intercessors. Given that this is what players do when building a list this means they can rather easily correctly evaluate that Intercessors are a poor choice. Now compared to the game at large they may be somewhat above average, but that's a meta concern and not a concern of a single player building their list be that for PUG or Tournament player. Narrative players may do otherwise but at that stage, we're not addressing list building from a balance point of view so that ends up outside of the scope of this discussion.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Just like claiming that Orks have three times the melee damage output of Intercessors without accounting for anything else. That’s my point.

Yes, just disprove bad math with more bad math... When has this ever worked out for you? You aren't changing Xeno's mind and you look like a biased idiot to the rest of us. Make proper arguments if you want people to reply in good faith.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/20 18:55:34


 
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Intercessors, though, are significantly ABOVE where a Troop should be. Or units in general. They're a really strong unit.


Yes, probably, but I think they also need to be, because they don't contribute much to the overall list unless someone really builds into them.


This quote seemed to imply that intercessors should be stronger than Boyz because otherwise they don't contribute.

Thusly implying that Boyz also don't contribute, since they aren't as strong as intercessors.

But they are strong. They do 3 times the damage as intercessors if you get them into combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Why so? They do good damage at range and in melee, while being nicely durable.

Yes, the Codex has other, better options-but that doesn’t make Intercessors bad.

Yes, it does. If you look at Codex SM in isolation you're not going to see a lot of compelling reasons to take Intercessors. Given that this is what players do when building a list this means they can rather easily correctly evaluate that Intercessors are a poor choice. Now compared to the game at large they may be somewhat above average, but that's a meta concern and not a concern of a single player building their list be that for PUG or Tournament player. Narrative players may do otherwise but at that stage, we're not addressing list building from a balance point of view so that ends up outside of the scope of this discussion.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Just like claiming that Orks have three times the melee damage output of Intercessors without accounting for anything else. That’s my point.

Yes, just disprove bad math with more bad math... When has this ever worked out for you? You aren't changing Xeno's mind and you look like a biased idiot to the rest of us. Make proper arguments if you want people to reply in good faith.
I don't think calling good math - bad math - makes you look any more credible. My mind isn't changing because these are facts. More than open to facts. I am open to different points of view. I am beyond tired of the antimarine bigotry though which is incessant on this forum.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 19:05:25


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Intercessors are probably the least popular of the troops at present. You'll likely never see ten of them in a unit - and likely never more then 5 in any of the troop selections. 5 marines here and there do not make a crucial impact with their ranged damage - to hold you need to move and to shoot you need to move to angle around terrain. Picking up an ork or two is not significant.


Maybe if Orks also had like 7 or 8 troops choices in their codex this could be a fair comparison.
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Why so? They do good damage at range and in melee, while being nicely durable.

Yes, the Codex has other, better options-but that doesn’t make Intercessors bad.


They're definitely not bad. Canadian highlights some of the issue.

For Intercessors to double tap they have to stand still. If they stand still they lose a TON of momentum. I played mission 22 last night. The objectives are 12" from DZ. That makes it only 9" to hold it. That makes it 15" from the intercessors or at least two turns of moving before they can reliably get a charge in. At some point they'll be in double tap range, but that really depends on the terrain and how they get deployed.



   
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Vancouver, BC

 Xenomancers wrote:
I don't think calling good math - bad math - makes you look any more credible. My mind isn't changing because these are facts. More than open to facts. I am open to different points of view. I am beyond tired of the antimarine bigotry though which is incessant on this forum.

Math is bad when the scenario surrounding the math is unlikely or requires a significant setup to make happen. 30 Boyz DSing near a group of units that can't overwatch and making their charge such that all 30 can attack can happen but it isn't a good baseline to derive anything from. The math can be done correctly and still be bad if it doesn't accurately describe anything.
   
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 Fergie0044 wrote:
Maybe if Orks also had like 7 or 8 troops choices in their codex this could be a fair comparison.


Cross codex comparisons will always be fraught with problems, but Orks may be getting an additional troop choice so there's that.

What that means for boyz I have no idea.

   
 
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