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Actually my point was more it was a similar society to our own, but some small differences, such as the ones I mentioned-- rather than just flipping all gender expectations period, which I agree would be lazy. Just flipping some can cause the reader to notice the bizarre incongruities and perhaps even wonder why the hell the gender norm (and perhaps others) is there in the first place, making it a good writing tool. Especially if not everything that is "normal" to their society but incongruent to ours is revealed at once, leaving one sometimes wondering what else is different ,and if there are hidden differences the story doesn't deal with.

So using a fictional setting to get people to think about real life issues in a new way. How cliché.

I just want to say how much I am enjoying this thread.

nomotog wrote:
So using a fictional setting to get people to think about real life issues in a new way. How cliché.

That's.... kind of the point of fiction. Good fiction, anyway.

 Psienesis wrote:

nomotog wrote:
So using a fictional setting to get people to think about real life issues in a new way. How cliché.

That's.... kind of the point of fiction. Good fiction, anyway.

I know I was just being cheeky. I like to have fun too some times.

 Melissia wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Or you could be a good, intelligent, creative writer build a sexist society that isn't a mirror image of the real world.

But I guess being creative is too hard for most writers.

What do you mean?

One example from my memory was a writer who proposed a story with a society where women were societally expected to be politicians, workers, soldiers, etc, and men were relegated to philosophers, scientists/engineers, academia, etc. A man who wanted to be a soldier was thought of as un-manly, because that honor belonged to women; a woman whom wanted to be an engineer was thought of as unfeminine, since that was clearly a manly thing, not something a woman should dirty her hands with. That's the more extreme end of the spectrum, showing how different a society can be from ours, but other smaller bits could be things like "a society where men were expected to stay home to raise any children they fathered and women expected to work", or "men are legally denied the right to carry swords in public, while women are socially obligated to do so".

Compare that to the lazy writing of many people, including people in this thread, whom suggest we take a fantasy world and lazily slap modern sexism on it and call it a day.

Interesting. Did the novel delve into the history of the world at all? Presumably it was the women who became soldiers in the present because it was the women in the past who were the ones out doing the killing for food, as they were, for whatever reason, the ones with the better shot at using their proportionally greater upper body strength and spacial orientation skills to spear a boar, and also the ones more likely to be chosen by their early tribe as combatants in competition over resources.

That's pretty clever.

A lot of loaded assertions that don't really apply to the real world don't really make for a convincing interpretation.

The way women are portrayed in gaming is often lazy and uninspired.

I think the same is often true of men.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The way women are portrayed in gaming is often lazy and uninspired.

I think the same is often true of men.

DING DING we have a winner!

That statement does not indicate equality, however.

You know, we can make a thread about the problems gamers have with how men are represented in games. I mean that is OK. It's not like there is a ban on it. If there is a problem that it bugging you, make that thread.

 Melissia wrote:
That statement does not indicate equality, however.

Let me go on to clarify that I think females do tend to get portrayed in said lazy and uninspired ways more often.

It does happen to both though. / shrugs

nomotog wrote:
You know, we can make a thread about the problems gamers have with how men are represented in games. I mean that is OK. It's not like there is a ban on it. If there is a problem that it bugging you, make that thread.

Eh, I think the point on that was simply that game writing in general is very, very lazy. It's something that sweeps up male characters and female characters in a vortex of bland characters with lazy writing usually capped off by a story that you only like because of the actual gameplay itself. He also said that it happens to females more (Although I can't tell if I have a greater problem with that or how 40k went on to say we don't want to model females because we're afraid of messing up )

Whilst not a game - I find the portrayal of sexes in Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive interesting.

Basically, men are expected to lead, fight, and work at manual labor. Women are expected to study, learn, engineer, and socialize. (At least in the primary culture the main characters are a part of - the rest of the world has different norms) to the point where men are almost totally illiterate (learning to read is feminine) ... although they have a quasi-written language of pictographs and there is an emergent society of men who have advanced that into an actual written language - which the majority of people consider dodgy at best.

Most successful people are couples who have complementary skills - ie a good military commander is also judged on his wife's abilities, as she is also his scribe/record keeper; especially important as there is now recently invented long range communication that is entirely writing based. Even to the point where since women hold an almost complete monopoly on literacy, they often include subtext knowing that the men who might be dictating the message cannot read it.

There is also a fairly nondogmatic religious class of monks who can be of either sex who are encouraged to learn - this is generally where more scientifically minded men are guided - who are supposed to guide others toward focusing their natural interests and abilities. They are also at least in theory 'owned' by their patrons, as there was a huge anti religious fallout after a theocratic coup earlier in the timeline.

AdeptSister wrote:I just want to say how much I am enjoying this thread.

That is .. sarcasm, right?

No actually. I am glad to hear how different people feel on the issue and their arguments.

 AdeptSister wrote:
No actually. I am glad to hear how different people feel on the issue and their arguments.

Me too. Echo chambers are no fun.

As the song 'Best Friends' from Persona 4 Arena says:

We keep each other strong
Going toe to toe

I think it's good to have lots of different views, so long as people understand this is a discussion and not a debate.

I dunno, this thread is at page 81, and by now every argument has been made several times. Whenever I'm taking a peek back into this thread, it just reminds me of why I've originally stopped posting here.

I suppose that, yes, it may serve as some sort of "mirror of society" so that you can see society's face and all the different opinions, but in the end I think that face doesn't look very pretty, and nobody who is debating things here is going to be convinced by the other side because everyone has already made up their mind, based on how they perceive the things they've seen.

In other words, it may not be an "echo chamber", but it is a broken record.

I can see that point. But for me, at least I have seen where the beliefs of specific posters and been given a greater understanding of their point of view and their discussion style. It's been pretty informative.

I mean, isn't that the point of most threads: to learn different POVs and why they believe what they do?

I don't have an answer to that. It does not feel like a new conversation to me, but I have been at this for a decade (at least), so that's not really surprising.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Don't worry, they are so slight that it hardly matters.

That kind of was my point from the very beginning .

 Psienesis wrote:

nomotog wrote:
So using a fictional setting to get people to think about real life issues in a new way. How cliché.

That's.... kind of the point of fiction. Good fiction, anyway.

I thought it was just being enjoyable, and making you think about real-life issue in a new way was just a possible nice extra.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Don't worry, they are so slight that it hardly matters.

That kind of was my point from the very beginning .

 Psienesis wrote:

nomotog wrote:
So using a fictional setting to get people to think about real life issues in a new way. How cliché.

That's.... kind of the point of fiction. Good fiction, anyway.

I thought it was just being enjoyable, and making you think about real-life issue in a new way was just a possible nice extra.

Ah, my apologies. I thought you were saying "there are no differences at all"
Which is...dumb.

 Lynata wrote:
nobody who is debating things here is going to be convinced by the other side because everyone has already made up their mind

#theinternet

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
nobody who is debating things here is going to be convinced by the other side because everyone has already made up their mind

#theinternet

I point at my sig.

We're all Peregrines.

 Ashiraya wrote:

We're all Peregrines.

Nah, most people and their respective opinions should be taken seriously, even if you (heavily) disagree with them. If someone litereally says "I AM ALWAYS RIGHT", then..well...that's another matter

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

We're all Peregrines.

Nah, most people and their respective opinions should be taken seriously, even if you (heavily) disagree with them. If someone litereally says "I AM ALWAYS RIGHT", then..well...that's another matter

Exactly. I'm always right.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

We're all Peregrines.

Nah, most people and their respective opinions should be taken seriously, even if you (heavily) disagree with them. If someone litereally says "I AM ALWAYS RIGHT", then..well...that's another matter

How often do you argue when you're not sure if you're right?

The whole 'I only post when I know I am right' drama is pretty pointless. In practice he is just as likely to be convinced as you are (that is, all-but impossible), he just admits it. It does not actually have any effect on the discussion itself unless you want it to!

 Lynata wrote:
I dunno, this thread is at page 81, and by now every argument has been made several times. Whenever I'm taking a peek back into this thread, it just reminds me of why I've originally stopped posting here.

I suppose that, yes, it may serve as some sort of "mirror of society" so that you can see society's face and all the different opinions, but in the end I think that face doesn't look very pretty, and nobody who is debating things here is going to be convinced by the other side because everyone has already made up their mind, based on how they perceive the things they've seen.

In other words, it may not be an "echo chamber", but it is a broken record.

You're describing every internet forum ever.

edit- God damn it, Sigvatr.

 Lynata wrote:
I dunno, this thread is at page 81, and by now every argument has been made several times. Whenever I'm taking a peek back into this thread, it just reminds me of why I've originally stopped posting here.

I suppose that, yes, it may serve as some sort of "mirror of society" so that you can see society's face and all the different opinions, but in the end I think that face doesn't look very pretty, and nobody who is debating things here is going to be convinced by the other side because everyone has already made up their mind, based on how they perceive the things they've seen.

In other words, it may not be an "echo chamber", but it is a broken record.

Its only broken if the message isn't getting trough, you don't have to agree to anything, but the moment you stop listen you loose.