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What do all of you IG players think? I've heard so many answers to this question on other threads I want a general consensus for my own (and anyone else who isnt sure) benefit.

I feel that 5pts is not a bad price to pay for a weapon that is certainly better than a lasgun and can be used in any squad if you are looking for a cheap boost.

An explanation to your vote would be appreciated to effectively answer this question that has so many people divided.

Every platoon squad I have has a Grenade Launcher because, although the flamer is a better weapon, the Grenade Launcher packs the range that the Guard are famous for. Also, it's Assault so move and fire a Blast Template. Secondly, it's versatile, against my mates paper Dark Eldar ravagers, every squad can attempt to pop it with a krak grenade.

In my opinion, the Grenade Launcher is the best Special Weapon, it's cheap, versatile and in the plastic box set, no expensive metal models.

The OC-D

Well, it pretty much is the default affordable option. The melta and flamer are both short ranged and reliant on numbers for effect, and the plasma gun is substantially more expensive. Nobody is amazed by what the GL does, but it's well priced and meshes well with the Autocannon, which for similar reasons is the top pick for heavy weapon in infantry squads.

Now, that's only in basic squads. In anything else, there are better options. A PCS should take flamers, Vets or CCS meltas, plasmas, or even flamers if need be.

I really hate these things. in blast form all they really kill is IG and in krak form they are still bs3 and not as good as a plasma shot. THey can't kill marines and the slot is better occupied by a more specific weapon. The IG are all about roles and the grenade launcher is a generalist weapon that fails at either of it's roles, that's why it's cheap. IMNSHO and from what I have seen grenade launchers are for players who don't know how to build army lists and want something that can do everything all at once. Grenade Launchers always fail unless taken in quadruplicate by a command squad and that is about the only exception to grenade launcher fail that I can think of.

(Raises Hand)...I don't know how to build an effective Guard force therefore I like the GL. Mostly for the reasons listed above. It is flexible, shooting either frag or Krak when and where it is needed. Although it is very rare that I shoot a frag round.

With the GL you will get one maybe two more shots than you will with a melta or a flamer. Safer than the Plasma but then so are all the other specials.

yeah, for the point cost, the range, and the versitility...I like the GL.

The GL is a below average weapon for a below average point cost. YGWYPF.

It also fills a niche by working well with the AC in line infantry squads. Plasma too expensive to put on a BS3 model, melta and flamer too short to work in AC line squads.

For AC foot squads, they are worth the points but will never impress. Otherwise I would say even 5 pts is too much.

I think that the GL can he very effective if used properly. It is very versitile and can work very well if used properly. They are a cheap way to fill a special weapon slot with a moderate weapon. They have decent range and can do a some damage. But they normally either suck or work quite well. To say they are for people who don't know how to make army lists is very ignorant IMO.

Interesting to hear all of your responses. These will directly effect the first list I run with my guard (probably against orcs).

Yes, AC/GL is an economic choice for a line squad, but personally I have not liked it. GL just does not pack the punch needed when the big threats get close to my line (and they seem to do that).

Personally I have been enjoying AC/melta. I'd an odd combo, but for only 5 more points you get a unit that can kick out AC at long range and then hit anything that gets close w/ melta.

For me it's AC/melta for line squads, flamers for PCS, and meltas for Vets/CCS. I've moved away from both Plasma, GL and all HW (except AC) for infantry.

I still feel that the Grenade Launcher is an unnecessary weapon in a Guard army. The good news is that now it is at least an appropriately costed unnecessary weapon in a Guard army.

Plasma Gun is still the better gun (tautological statement is tautological, I know), and while grossly ovepriced at 15 points, the fact that the Autocannon went down 5 points means that we can still take the two guns best suited to work with one another - the trusty ol' AC/Plas Squad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I still feel that the Grenade Launcher is an unnecessary weapon in a Guard army. The good news is that now it is at least an appropriately costed unnecessary weapon in a Guard army.

Plasma Gun is still the better gun (tautological statement is tautological, I know), and while grossly ovepriced at 15 points, the fact that the Autocannon went down 5 points means that we can still take the two guns best suited to work with one another - the trusty ol' AC/Plas Squad.

Or you can drop down to AC / GL and save 10 points per squad. IG units and upgrades are cheap enough that 10 points can add up very quickly.

I think the only argument to make for paying 15 points for plasma is in a BS 4 unit. And even then, I think you need to try and twin-link with " Bring it down!" versus vehicles as much as possible to really get your points worth. (Which in turn demands deployment on foot. ) Basic infantry squads are BS 3, and are generally lower priorities to receive your limited number of Command-level orders. They're poor candidates for plasma.

Dave47 wrote:Or you can drop down to AC / GL and save 10 points per squad. IG units and upgrades are cheap enough that 10 points can add up very quickly.

Or I can not take a Special Weapon at all and save 15 points a Squad.

So what's your point?

The Plasma Gun is taken in squads with Autocannons because they can then fire at the same sorts of targets, just as we've been doing since the original 3rd Ed Guard Codex. Nothing's changed there. In fact, the squads themselves got cheaper, so we can bring more of them. I see what you're saying about Ballistic Skill, but my BS4 guys will have Meltaguns, and they'll be killing tanks ('cause nothing else really can). I've been taking BS3 Plasma Guns for the past 10 years - a change in price won't change that, especially when the 5 point increase is off-set by the 5 point decrease on the Autocannon.

And I don't really care all that much about Orders, so I won't comment or make judgements on how they interact here.

One big problem is the purpose of the squads....

If you need anti-transport, use a hydra or vendetta

If you need anti-tank, use a vendetta, 3xmelta or some weird heavy support choices

If you need anti-infantry, even a chimera have good dakka and there is the 4xflamer PCS

If you need anti-terminator, there is 3xplas and some russes

I'd think line squads weapons would be added LAST in a guard list, after everything else have been filled, than one finds whatever points to fill them.

No, plasma guns and autocannon don't shoot the same target. The former kills tough troops close while the latter kills weak vehicles far away. The weapon that shoots the same target as a autocannon is another autocannon.

Their weapons compliment each other. They're both S7. AP didn't matter before when it came to AC/Plas Squads, and it sure doesn't matter in 5th Edition - the Era of the Cover Save.

You are right about arming the Guard Squads last though, and yes, thanks to the presence of the Vendy and Hydra in the list the AC/Plas isn't as necessary as it once was, but when comparing them to Grenade Launchers, Plas still wins out because it's a better gun overall and its stupid points cost is offset by the equally as stupid(ly low) points cost of the Autocannon. And that's what this threads about - Grenade Launchers, and their worth (or lack thereof) in Guard Squads. Therefore, comparing Infantry Squads to Hydras doesn't really help.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Plas still wins out.....its stupid points cost is offset by the equally as stupid(ly low) points cost of the Autocannon

I don't think that's a reasonable argument, because you're giving the plasma gun credit for an unrelated price change. By that same logic, since autocannons are 5 points cheaper now, isn't that the same as a free grenade launcher? So what we're looking at here, plasma vs. GL, is this:

Plasma Gun
rapid fire
+1S
AP2

Grenade Launcher
10 points less
small blast shot
no Gets Hot


As you said, in the era of cover saves, the issue of AP is pretty minimal. Gets Hot is a pretty big issue with 5+ armour saves. +1 str and rapid fire vs. 10 points and a small blast. I prefer GL/autocannon, simply to keep my footsloggers as they should be: cheap and numerous. Besides, GLs have a shot at damaging rhinos 1/3 of the time they hit, which I can justify 5 points for.

I've been giving GLs a try in Chimera mounted command squads. I can fire 4 out the top when moving, and they nicely compliment the Chimera's anti-infantry/light armor roll. For PCS, BS3 isn't so much worst than BS4 for the blast, anyway.

I'll echo the general sentiment: They're not that great, but they're only five points.

I do agree with HBMC that the plasma is a better weapon to pair with the AC, though. You won't be moving the squad, so the assault ability of the GL is unimportant. The S7 vs S6 is significant vs. vehicles and MCs. AP2 and rapid fire puts it over the top when (pick nasty assault unit) gets to your lines.

Im sure ive said it before.. but presuming you shoot against a squad that has a cover save...

The blast shot = about 5-6 lasguns wielding guardsmen (I.e 2-3 lasgun hits). Its better (for a princely sum of 5pts) than 1.5 to 3 guardsmen firing lasguns with the order FRFSRF and much better firing with the order 'On my target' to force a re-roll on cover-saves.

While str 6 will wound much more often, bs3 will hit much less often than a couple blasts will in terms of scatter & you get 1 hit per 2-3hits so the wounding differeance is also moot. Meaning bs3 scattering blast > bs3 one shot.

The model also looks cool & he wont ever implode his face.

With your line squads in cover, that means what ever flavor of nasty assault thats comeing your way is most likely in the open, and THAT makes the plasma the best weapon. The plasmas 24" range and the re-roll cover save order also seem to work well togather.

Ceturion.

Here is how I'd build a IG army:

1. Take all the specialized and necessary units
2. Take look at left over point and whether squeezing in a extra unit is a good idea and goto 1, if not, goto 3
3 Put autocannon on everyone that can take one that don't already have a weapon.
4. Put GL/Flamer on everyone that can take one that don't already have one
5. Upgrade a GL/Flame to plasma/melta if I still have leftover points.

Plasma is good, but it is not good enough to beat 3 grenade launchers. If you are just adding extra weapons on non-critical-shooting squads than having more guns is better.

Of course, I'm operating under the assumption that line squads is no longer used as a fire base but something that screens the army and dies first so better things don't die, or a objective grabber likely either running or not well positioned for shooting for most of the game and their fire power is merely nice to have, not critical to game plans.

So is the GL good? Absolutely when you have a extra few points here or there to spend. Where else can guard spend extra points? Hunter killer missile? lol

I have not been impressed by AC/Plasma.

For the sizable investment for Plasma, I feel that between the BS3 and the GetsHot!, it isn't bringing enough to the table.

AC are awesome at popping transports at range, once they get within 24", they are targets for meltaguns vets/ccs.

In addition, since cover saves are so common, the ap2 on the plasma does not often come into effect. And lets be honest, LR Exec does plasma much better.


What threatens your fire base?

Transports bringing troops close.
AC help against the tranports at range.

MC/Dreads getting stuck in and wreaking havoc.
meltas help aginst MC/dreads up close. Have a CCS near to throw some BiD!s arounds.
GL just lack the punch to handle these targets imo.

BoxANT wrote:I have not been impressed by AC/Plasma.

For the sizable investment for Plasma, I feel that between the BS3 and the GetsHot!, it isn't bringing enough to the table.

AC are awesome at popping transports at range, once they get within 24", they are targets for meltaguns vets/ccs.

In addition, since cover saves are so common, the ap2 on the plasma does not often come into effect. And lets be honest, LR Exec does plasma much better.


What threatens your fire base?

Transports bringing troops close.
AC help against the tranports at range.

MC/Dreads getting stuck in and wreaking havoc.
meltas help aginst MC/dreads up close. Have a CCS near to throw some BiD!s arounds.
GL just lack the punch to handle these targets imo.

But you do think that GLs are better than plasma guns?

I voted 'no'

In discussing the grenade launcher, the topic of the plasma gun is going to come up. So its valid to discuss this here.

In almost all cases, when there is an available slot for a unit to purchase a weapon upgrade, the cost of that upgrade is practically irrelevant. The purpose of the unit needs to be decided on, and then the best weapon to help that unit achieve its purpose needs to be bought. If it is more expensive, thats because it is better.

Line squads that take autocannons are designed to shoot at three things, light vehicles, monstrous creatures and models with T5. Strength 7 is too high to be efficient at shooting at infantry, and almost every relevant T5 model has feel no pain or WBB (SM bike command squads, nob bikers, plague marines, plague bearers, immortals, destroyers to name a few) So that AP2 has a marked effect at shooting at those targets, as well as being 16% more effective at shooting at MCs with 3+ saves (i.e. almost all of them)

If your line squad took a lascannon, i would probably also advocate taking a plasma gun. As when you did shoot that lascannon at a light vehicle or an MC or an FNP unit, you cold contribute.

If your squad took a heavy bolter, because you were focusing on anti-horde (as in, not building an all-comers list) then the grenade launcher becomes a viable option, but I would prefer the sniper rifles extended range and rending/pinning possibilities. Silly as that would be...

But thats just how bad the grenade launcher has been for me. That I'd actually count the pinning effect of a sniper rifle as 'worth' not taking a grenade launcher.

It is an anti-infantry weapon, that has two different firing modes. Anti T3, or anti-T4. It doesn't carry any additional flexibility beyond that. FNP, power armor, light vehicle, T5, MC. It can't touch these things as well as the plasma.

I would have liked to see it have more of an impact against light infantry hordes myself. Having it lose the strength 6 shot and pick up strength 4 ap 4 small blast would have made me happy. It might be worth 5 points, but its not worth the slot you burn to buy it.


Edit: I'd like to add however, that it is a 24" range assault weapon. To attempt to make it viable. Putting it on a unit that you know will have to do some moving, and not losing its ability to do some shooting can work. A PCS with 3 or 4 grenade launchers can shuffle up and down the lines, issuing FRFSRF while still firing some decent shots. Once you put a GL into a unit with heavy weapons, it instantly loses 6" of range, and one of the only abilities that seperate it from the 'better' plasma gun

wow shep, you articulated everything I said and managed to toss in sniper rifles being better! lol, sniper rifles!

I am liking the prospect of putting GLs in with ACs now. I haven't tried it yet, but I think that the Executioner covers nearly all the list's AP2 requirements with the added bonus of not dying to gets hot. I also don't think that anything less than a melta is really worth throwing at serious tanks like the Predator, Exorcist, Hammerhead etc., Str 7 or no, and if I am going to be taking an outside chance of popping a rhino I would like to pay less than 15points to do so with the bonus of cooking my guy off.
I can see how plasma would be good, but I just don't think that a BS3 model needs a weapon that costs 15 points and is pretty likely to kill the poor fellow, not when there are other places to get some AP2 lovin.

Wehrkind wrote:I am liking the prospect of putting GLs in with ACs now. I haven't tried it yet, but I think that the Executioner covers nearly all the list's AP2 requirements with the added bonus of not dying to gets hot. I also don't think that anything less than a melta is really worth throwing at serious tanks like the Predator, Exorcist, Hammerhead etc., Str 7 or no, and if I am going to be taking an outside chance of popping a rhino I would like to pay less than 15points to do so with the bonus of cooking my guy off.
I can see how plasma would be good, but I just don't think that a BS3 model needs a weapon that costs 15 points and is pretty likely to kill the poor fellow, not when there are other places to get some AP2 lovin.

The executioner and my 17 meltaguns do indeed cover my ap2 needs. And my multi-lasers and hydra batteries cover my autocannon needs. So I have no use for line squads at all.

In the context that I'd be using line squads, I think it would be nice to ditch my executioners if i could, and focus my support on horde kill and heavy vehicle kill.

Also if using a line squad, remember to factor in that the plasma gun will quite often be under the effect of bring it down or fire on my target. In the former, the lower ballistic skill problem and a little of the overheat problem gets mitigated, and its less of a 'throwaway' shot against those MCs and tanks. In the latter, its AP2 carries even more value when firing at targets in cover.

I dislike the prospect of causing wounds to my own models in my own shooting phase as well. But when you are on Bring it down, its only a 1 in 36 chance to overheat from long range, cut even lower by your armor save. And when i briefly ran around with foot guard, all my line squads were ever doing was shooting at vehicles and MCs, with the only exception being games against horde orks. And I only ever had 2 'line squad' entities in those lists, as I'd blob to 20 with radios and commissars, having enough orders and passing them were not problems at all.


I don't know. You never really want to have an upgrade weapon that your opponent has zero fear of and zero respect for. I just don't ever remember hearing someone say "if it wasn't for those damn grenade launchers, I would have won that game." Unless it was a guard player that couldn't kill off a unit of bloodcrushers on his front door step.

Any discussion about the GL has to factor in how many line squads you have. If you're dropping one minimum platoon, or even two, then why take GLs when you can take plasma?

If, however, you're taking a larger infantry presence, then taking light skirmishing squads has always been a part of the IG playbook. They used to be HB/F, but now they can be AC/GL for the same price.

Shep wrote:I don't know. You never really want to have an upgrade weapon that your opponent has zero fear of and zero respect for. I just don't ever remember hearing someone say "if it wasn't for those damn grenade launchers, I would have won that game." Unless it was a guard player that couldn't kill off a unit of bloodcrushers on his front door step.

When you can upgrade an existing Veteran squad to take a demo charge and melta bombs for +30 points, or buy Sly Marbo for 65 points, it's hard to justify paying 15 points for BS 3 plasma. The IG has so many better options that are competing for those points.

At this point, we seem to be running two parallel (though related) threads. On the "plasma controversy," you're not convincing me to take plasma in line infantry squads. But you are making me question whether those line infantry squads should take grenade launchers. Perhaps the ideal infantry squad is 60 points with an Autocannon and nothing more. It shoots vehicles early in the game, and then turns to infantry once the enemy transports are popped. Or, alternatley, perhaps the autocannon should be paired with a flamer: when the enemy gets close you forgo the autocannon shots to run up and rapid-fire / flame the enemy.

The Defenestrator wrote:I don't think that's a reasonable argument, because you're giving the plasma gun credit for an unrelated price change. By that same logic, since autocannons are 5 points cheaper now, isn't that the same as a free grenade launcher?

It is completely related, given that the Plasma Gun and Autocannon are two weapons that have always worked with one another. So an increase in one and a reduction in another will always be related. The Grenade Launcher has always been a poor man's everything, a weapon that couldn't kill big things as good as a Plasma Gun and couldn't kill infantry as good as a Flamer (and now scatters 4" on average, which is a long way for a template 1.5" in diametre).

The Defenestrator wrote:Gets Hot is a pretty big issue with 5+ armour saves.

Why? It's never been an issue before this. What's changed? Guard are 100% expendable. The odd death to Gets Hot! has never been a big deal, and I don't see why it is more of a big deal now especially when the squads have, overall, become cheaper.

I like the grenade launcher above the flamer because for a flamer to be affective you need to be in the enimies asssault range next turn, which generally isnt good. the plasma gun is rapid fire so has limits to when you fire it and its range, although a meltagun is a good idea sometimes if there's an annoying tank nearby. unfortunately i have run out of grenade launchers, but iv got a few already.

I like the GL because it is Assault, and because it is cool, and because it comes in the box.

The Plasma is the much better weapon, however. And you cannot move and fire the Autocannon, anyway.

As for the cost, how you should look at it is this. 4 Plasma guns cost 40 additional points. Are you better off with upgraded guns in your infantry squads or upgraded guns somewhere else? Autocannon/ Plasma seems like a great combo unless you are deliberately looking to do something else. And there is no doubt they are a better choice against TMC.