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Reading through the O&G book, I really have to agree with the sentiment that the Animosity rules really only serve to hurt an O&G army. Thinking about the rule got me thinking though - what slight tweaks could make the rule much better/not over-powering?

So I figured I'd posit this question to Dakka, but with regards to any rules that are under/over powering and the small tweaks that would make things better over all.

I'll start-

Orcs & Goblins
Animosity - maybe just get rid of the 'Squabble' result and make the 6 result be more or a "charge/march toward nearest visible enemy" instead of the current rules. Maybe get rid of any of the "inflicts damage to unit" rules that other units have with regard to Animosity (ie. Black Orc bosses don't inflict hits on his unit).

Vampire Counts
Stolen from other comments from previous threads - Simply limit the number of times you can cast their summoning spells and things would probably even out alright.

Dark Elves
Couple of points increases for certain items - Pendant of Khaleth, for instance comes to mind.

There's a proposed rules forum for a reason

Ah crap. Wrong freaking forum (Could've sworn I was in the right section). Mods, please move!

Jin wrote:
Vampire Counts
Stolen from other comments from previous threads - Simply limit the number of times you can cast their summoning spells and things would probably even out alright.

My FLGS proposed the same thing, there are only two people who play VC there. Myself and another gentleman I've yet to meet. We've all just started as well mind you, within the past six months at least. And whenever we've agreed to use this restriction for VC it has absolutely crippled us. I hear of the other VC players games and in games where we use the restriction he gets absolutely destroyed. I play an even more magic/ghoul heavy list and the same fate befalls me every time. My ghouls lose combat by a massive amount, crumble huge numbers, I can't cast enough spells on them to raise them back to a number where they might survive next turn.

The restriction we've been using is that they may cast IoN a number of times equal to their Wizard level. So each of my lvl 2 wizards is throwing 2 IoN on 1 die each succeeding on 3s. And my lord will be throwing 4 IoNs succeeding on 3s. It's a real pain in the ass. I just can't keep anyone one unit of ghouls up long enough under those kinds of restrictions to compete. The unit usually loses after two turns of combat and then my weaker spellcasters go and as soon as I loose one it's an up-hill battle. And I wouldn't consider my list friendly by any means.

At this point we don't really use restrictions that much and I seem to win a bit more now. It's just a hard balancing act. All my units do have fear, they are unbreakable but if you beat them in combat I will loose a lot more of them. Because I usually either win by a small margin or loose by a ton and come close to loosing the unit.

Keep IoN the way it is as summoning has ALWAYS been the vamps bread and butter. The main problem is the other spells that can be spammed like 'dance.' Take away the repeat castings of the other necromancy spells and you will cut the complaints about VC in half and there might be some good games.


The orcs should probably just lose the animosity thing completely, but then they'd need a slight points raise as an orc boy is soooooo good for the points.

The problem with the dark elves is that they are very good in every single phase of the game and they have ways to cover up their inherent weaknesses. They're just a very solid list and the older books can't really compete right now.

Bat Manuel wrote:Keep IoN the way it is as summoning has ALWAYS been the vamps bread and butter. The main problem is the other spells that can be spammed like 'dance.' Take away the repeat castings of the other necromancy spells and you will cut the complaints about VC in half and there might be some good games.


The orcs should probably just lose the animosity thing completely, but then they'd need a slight points raise as an orc boy is soooooo good for the points.

The problem with the dark elves is that they are very good in every single phase of the game and they have ways to cover up their inherent weaknesses. They're just a very solid list and the older books can't really compete right now.

Bat Manuel, I like you.

You always have the answers, those answers are always very well thought out and logical and you don't waste time with pleasantries.

In other words, QFT

Interesting input on the VC's - again, those wishful changes were from comments other people have had about VC's. I personally haven't had the pleasure of experiencing the power of the VC's first hand, and have only seen a demo game with them and heard other peoples' accounts of the army. Was just tossing that "change" out as another example. But now dialogue is occuring! Huzzah!

@Bat Manuel: Agreed on the Dark Elves. I actually don't have too many issues with the book as a whole, I think it is for the most part one of the better written and better balanced books out right now. There're just a handful of items that I feel are a bit under-priced.

Oi! What's an Orc wivvout a fight!?!?

In all seriousness though, Animosity is, annoying, but it gives the army its character IMHO. And yes, Orcs are great for their amount of points

I agree with Bat Manuel on VC.....

As for Dark Elves, some things are a bit under priced, but wait for all the new 'dexs to come out.

I played an orc and goblin army that took animosity on the chin for a long time. It's absolutely great craic in friendly games, but there's not much point in bringing it to tournaments I felt.

I dunno. I don't think there is a way to do animosity that won't cripple the army at the highest levels of competition.

Also, no mention of DoC?

Da Boss wrote:Also, no mention of DoC?

Heh. DoC's, from what people have complained about in other threads seem to need some points adjustments and/or some toning down of stats

DoC also don't have a quick fix. There are too many problems to address without a total rewrite of the book.

I think animosity shuld be that for every O&G within 2" of another O&G unit adds a 1 to their animosity roll. This shuld also chain up like a if there is an O&G unit within a unit that is within 2" of another O&G unit.

I really don't see why people complain about Animosity. Your playing orcs and goblins, it's not only part of their main fluff but it's what makes The Orcs and Goblins what they are, IMHO.

Of course, feel free to disagree. Just my 0.02 cents.

As for your wanting to re-work the "6" result on Animosity, what you have suggested is the current rule.

And Forsaken should be much, much better, like an ultimate berserker unit.

No, current rule says that you move D6" toward nearest visible enemy - this is a compulsory move that otherwise does not affect the unit during the normal movement phase (asides from making the unit count as having moved).

My tweak would make the charge/march toward nearest visible enemy unit their move for the turn - sort of like a one-turn frenzy.

Ahh, that's what it is then.

I still think the rule is fine, IMHO. but your way works too.

Just a tweak for my rule idea, I stead of an ANimosity roll how about a Leadership test? With the rule that I suggested before but make it apply to Leadership. These tweaks I'm suggesting aren't because I dont like Animosity but because it suits the army. Orcs are couragous (is that the right word?) in greater numbers but they flee when they are low on numbers so they flee. Does anyone see where Im going with this?

Bat Manuel wrote:Keep IoN the way it is as summoning has ALWAYS been the vamps bread and butter. The main problem is the other spells that can be spammed like 'dance.' Take away the repeat castings of the other necromancy spells and you will cut the complaints about VC in half and there might be some good games.quote]


the new rules state that you can not cast dance on the same unit more than once. so you cant really use the old trick where a death star get thrown across the board in one turn.

i personally dont have much of a problem with the DoC. they put up a good fight, but i can generally beat them

Beh.....just wish the High Elves had better armor right now (and replaced a bunch of their mostly situational magic items).

I still don't understand why such a long-lived race doesn't have better armor.

They're elves, they aren't known for running around in heavy suits of armor.

Lithe, fragile, yet hard hitting and elite.

I also think that Ogres should have WS 4 and 4 Attacks. These two slight changes and some point adjustments (50 for Ironguts, or 45, taking in account the WS 4 and extra Attack, and maybe only 30 points for a bull) could help balance out the Ogre Kingdoms.

If I had one thing to change it would be voluntary Fleeing. It never ceases to piss me off.

Here's what I propose:

The unit must take a Ld test to declare a Flee reaction, but automatically passes their Rally test next turn. So the test is still taken, but it is taken to be able to Flee instead of Rally.

I think it would be more difficult to convince a unit to feint in this way than to rally once they are out of danger. Hence the unit takes the Ld test to perform the maneuver. This makes it a bit risky to perform the ole' bait and switch tactic.

Plus with most units you intend to do this with you don't really care if they Rally or not. So there is little risk and lots to gain.

Of course I may be biased since I play Khorne and Savage Orks a lot. LOL

Oh, what is DoC anyway??

DoC: Daemons of Cheesiness (Chaos, lol!)

I want all ranged bow (short bow doesnt count) to have indirect fire. This makes more sense and make them actually worth taking.

Indirect fire would be very nice, IMHO.

Though not for Handguns or Crossbows.

Ah, OK. Yes DoC are HORRIBLE!

The "1" Nurgle spell is unbelievably powerfull. A local guy plays Nurgle Demons and never even rolls for spells on his two LvL 1 Heralds, he just takes that one.