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Greetings. Please help me choose between these two lists

Lash Prince w Wings
Kharn
Berzerkers x9 includes Champ with Power Fist
Rhino w Extra Armor
Noise Marines x5 w Blastmaster
Plague Marines x10 includes Champ with Power Fist, Meltagun and Flamer
Plague Marines x10 includes Champ with Power Fist, Meltagun and Flamer
Havocs x7 w Heavy Bolters x4
Obliterators x3
Obliterators x2
1849 with 4 Troops and 10 Kill Points

or

Lash Prince w Wings
Kharn
Chosen x10 includes Champ with Power Fist, Power Weapon and Meltagun x3
Berzerkers x9 includes Champ with Power Fist
Rhino w Extra Armor
Noise Marines x5 w Blastmaster
Plague Marines x10 includes Champ with Power Fist, Meltagun and Flamer
Havocs x9 w Heavy Bolters x4
Obliterators x3
Obliterators x2
1849 with 3 Troops and 10 Kill Points

Is it worth giving up a troop to get the infiltrating tank killers (and two more Havoc hit points)? I can see them being a psychological terror especially with IG being popular right now. But I am sacrificing a troop. A tough troop too that can and will claim an objective and is less likely to give up a kill point. Thoughts?

Personally I would keep the first list over the second. You can load two meltaguns and a combi-melta into each plague marine squad, so seeing all of that nasty heat-ray goodness would make any tank commander think twice about bringing armor within your range anyway. The infiltrating unit would be shot to pieces on its own if you put it too far up, and if you put it too far back it is a unit that dies faster than plague marines and can't claim objectives. From what I can see, that is lose-lose. The plague marines are in trouble either way though, if they are stuck footslogging. Your rhinos aren't very expensive points-wise, if you can afford them both with points by sacrificing a few havocs and afford each $30 US box, I would mechanize them for sure. Even plague marines will be brought down by weight of fire if they have to march across the entire board, but in rhinos they can plop down on objectives and can even drive-by and shoot meltas out of the fire points. Take that how you will, it's just my two cents but it's how I'm building my own CSM army. The unit of plague marines in it is in their own rhino, for ease of objective snagging and the fact that it is an AV11 ablative wound for them, since even if it is pen6'd you are highly unlikely to lose even a single marine.

Darkreaver55 wrote:Personally I would keep the first list over the second.

I definetly favor the first list, but thought the Chosen unit was kind of neat.

Darkreaver55 wrote:You can load two meltaguns and a combi-melta into each plague marine squad, so seeing all of that nasty heat-ray goodness would make any tank commander think twice about bringing armor within your range anyway. The infiltrating unit would be shot to pieces on its own if you put it too far up, and if you put it too far back it is a unit that dies faster than plague marines and can't claim objectives. From what I can see, that is lose-lose. The plague marines are in trouble either way though, if they are stuck footslogging. Your rhinos aren't very expensive points-wise, if you can afford them both with points by sacrificing a few havocs and afford each $30 US box, I would mechanize them for sure. Even plague marines will be brought down by weight of fire if they have to march across the entire board, but in rhinos they can plop down on objectives and can even drive-by and shoot meltas out of the fire points. Take that how you will, it's just my two cents but it's how I'm building my own CSM army. The unit of plague marines in it is in their own rhino, for ease of objective snagging and the fact that it is an AV11 ablative wound for them, since even if it is pen6'd you are highly unlikely to lose even a single marine.

And the Plague Marines being fearless means they won't be pinned when it is destroyed. Yeah I am all for Rhinos in 5th ed. I only have one currently. Even with dropping the remaining two havocs, i'd still need a few more points. I am starting to rethink the wings on the Prince. I have not been doing this previously, but he would take dangerous terrain checks if he moves into or out of cover. That displeases me (and shame on me for not taking them previously, I thought it was just ends in cover not begins).

You would be surprised how durable a ten man unit of Plague Marines is though. Even without Rhinos, I have only ever seen them take a beating in the shooting phase twice in about 30 games. That was to a Plasma Cannon Dev. squad and Dark Reapers respectively. Typically the Oblits draw all the AP 2 fire, the Rhino and Prince take anti-vehicle and the Plagues get whatever is left over. You make a good point though.

I know exactly how durable big squads of Plague Marines are, I've been squashed by a guy who runs a 2 winged DP mechanized plague marine list. You just can't kill the things. But if you face off against mech eldar, gunline tau, or the new vastly shooty mean IG, weight of fire will definitely take a toll. In my opinion, don't take the wings off of your DP. Without the ability to move like jump infantry he can be outmaneuvered or worse, tarpitted. Those chosen are definitely neat, but an unmechanized army would not be able to support them before they would get cut to pieces if they infiltrate far enough forward to be within range to shoot their own weaponry. They might buy time for your entire army to advance forward as they draw all the fire, but is that worth the crap-ton of points you would have to spend on them is what you would have to consider.

i am typing this on my phone, so i won't type out a whole list. but i could drop 3 hit points from the hacoc squad and trade a meltagun for a flamer in the chosen squad to give them a rhino. then they could infiltrate or outflank. if infiltrating the plague marines get the rhino. it gives up an additional kill point compared to list one. is this an improvement?

Drop the Havocs. They aren't worth the points, especially with Heavy Bolters. If you drop them, and the rhino for the berzerkers, you should be close to enough points to grab a land raider for your Zerks. This gives you a little more anti-tank firepower, but you still get to keep a heavy bolter for help against troops. A land raider/zerk charge can really grab your opponents attention, and can do devastating damage to the opponents line if those berzerkers get their charge. It would work with either list, but I like the second one with the chosen a little more.

I also recommend that you drop the extra armour on your other rhino, it's not worth the points on a light transport like that. Give a rhino to both the PMs and the Chosen - you rarely ant to infiltrate chosen, as they will be left exposed, and they won't be mobile enough to easily get within effective range for their meltas. Personally, I would also give the PMs two meltas or two plasmas. Anything that flamer will be effective on is just as easily handled in CC anyway.

Finally, you should drop the champ and the power weapons from the Chosen. Replace the pw with a melta, and just put the PF on a regular chosen. The extra attack isn't worth ten points, and that's the only benefit you get from the AC upgrade.

i am typing this on my phone, so i won't type out a whole list. but i could drop 3 hit points from the hacoc squad and trade a meltagun for a flamer in the chosen squad to give them a rhino. then they could infiltrate or outflank. if infiltrating the plague marines get the rhino. it gives up an additional kill point compared to list one. is this an improvement?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fatal_GRACE wrote:Drop the Havocs. They aren't worth the points, especially with Heavy Bolters. If you drop them, and the rhino for the berzerkers, you should be close to enough points to grab a land raider for your Zerks. This gives you a little more anti-tank firepower, but you still get to keep a heavy bolter for help against troops. A land raider/zerk charge can really grab your opponents attention, and can do devastating damage to the opponents line if those berzerkers get their charge. It would work with either list, but I like the second one with the chosen a little more.

I also recommend that you drop the extra armour on your other rhino, it's not worth the points on a light transport like that. Give a rhino to both the PMs and the Chosen - you rarely ant to infiltrate chosen, as they will be left exposed, and they won't be mobile enough to easily get within effective range for their meltas. Personally, I would also give the PMs two meltas or two plasmas. Anything that flamer will be effective on is just as easily handled in CC anyway.

Finally, you should drop the champ and the power weapons from the Chosen. Replace the pw with a melta, and just put the PF on a regular chosen. The extra attack isn't worth ten points, and that's the only benefit you get from the AC upgrade.

So the second list with some edits would be this:

Lash Prince w Wings
Kharn
Chosen x10 includes Champ w Power Fist and Meltagun x4
Berzerkers x9 includes Champ w Power Fist
Noise Marines x5 w Blastmaster
Plague Marines x10 includes Champ with Power Fist, Flamer x2 (this is a correction from OP)
Land Raider w Daemonic Possession for Kharn and Friends
Obliterators x3
Obliterators x2
1849 with 3 Troops and 9 Kill Points

It definetly loses some dakka, but picks up durability. That Land Raider is very survivable. It still has all the tools necessary to deal with any list, but I am somewhat concerned about Objectives. Hordes could be an issue, but the Plague Marines and Prince really perform well versus them.

I have to disagree with you about the Heavy Bolter Havocs though. They put out so much fire, and they are the same cost as 10 berzerkers with no upgrades or transport. That squad strikes fear into the hearts of Horde players and Assault Terminators alike. The volume of fire means you kill lots of light infantry, and the high strength ensures enough wounds that some Heavy Infantry will die every turn. I know they don't fit with your Close Combat style as a World Eaters player, but trust me (as an Iron Warriors player) they are worth every point.