Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My roomate plays SM and just picked up Mr.Calgar and had a valid question. If Mr.Calgar is equipt with "Gauntlets of Ultramar"(his only option) which is 2 powerfists with built in bolters, does he strike at Inititive 1(powerfists always strike last) Or does he strike at his regular Inititive 5??

thx , Tangent.

1

1 But he also is equiped with a power weapon also but you dont recieve bonus attack for it though

Yup, you can choose to strike at S8 I1 or at S4 I5 but you will never have a bonus attack for having 2 CCW however.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Yup, you can choose to strike at S8 I1 or at S4 I5 but you will never have a bonus attack for having 2 CCW however.

Except when using the 2 powerfists, right?

No, because its Only 1 Weapon (the Gauntlets of Ultramar). It "counts as" two powerfists, but it is only one weapon, and since you cant get the bonus attack if you have more than one different special CCW weapon...

Not this again. He can only use 2 weapons at a time. So if the 2 weapons, picked are power fists then that gives a bonus +1 attack. If he uses the sword then he doesn't get an extra attack.

Edit and next you'll be telling every one a pair of lightning claws is one weapon not 2

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:No, because its Only 1 Weapon (the Gauntlets of Ultramar). It "counts as" two powerfists, but it is only one weapon, and since you cant get the bonus attack if you have more than one different special CCW weapon...

Counts as two power fists = two power fists... no?

Tri wrote:Not this again. He can only use 2 weapons at a time. So if the 2 weapons, picked are power fists then that gives a bonus +1 attack. If he uses the sword then he doesn't get an extra attack.

Edit and next you'll be telling every one a pair of lightning claws is one weapon not 2

No, I am not saying a Pair of Lighting Claws is one weapon, but please, tell me where it says "Caldar is armed with 2 powerfists". Oh Snap, he isnt, he is Armed with two Weapons, the Gauntlets of Ultramar (which is one weapon) and a Power Weapon (Which is another Weapon). In Any Case, he is subject to the rules that say if you have more than one special CCW you dont get the bonus attack.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:No, I am not saying a Pair of Lighting Claws is one weapon, but please, tell me where it says "Caldar is armed with 2 powerfists". Oh Snap, he isnt, he is Armed with two Weapons, the Gauntlets of Ultramar (which is one weapon) and a Power Weapon (Which is another Weapon). In Any Case, I expect my opponent to leap over the table and smash my testicles with a hammer if I actually try playing this way.

Fixed.

If anything "counts as" anything else, it uses the rules for whatever it counts as because thats what "counts as" means. A power klaw counts as a power fist so you use the rules for power fists, the gauntlets of ultramar count as 2 power fists so you use the rules for 2 power fists. The result being you get the extra attack because it "counts as" 2 fists and when you have two fists you get an extra attack.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:

Tri wrote:Not this again. He can only use 2 weapons at a time. So if the 2 weapons, picked are power fists then that gives a bonus +1 attack. If he uses the sword then he doesn't get an extra attack.

Edit and next you'll be telling every one a pair of lightning claws is one weapon not 2

No, I am not saying a Pair of Lighting Claws is one weapon, but please, tell me where it says "Caldar is armed with 2 powerfists". Oh Snap, he isnt, he is Armed with two Weapons, the Gauntlets of Ultramar (which is one weapon) and a Power Weapon (Which is another Weapon). In Any Case, he is subject to the rules that say if you have more than one special CCW you dont get the bonus attack.

actually, it says on page 84 of the SM codex:
Gauntlets of Ultramar: These are a matched pair of powerfists.

so it does say he has 2 powerfists.

sourclams wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:No, I am not saying a Pair of Lighting Claws is one weapon, but please, tell me where it says "Caldar is armed with 2 powerfists". Oh Snap, he isnt, he is Armed with two Weapons, the Gauntlets of Ultramar (which is one weapon) and a Power Weapon (Which is another Weapon). In Any Case, I expect my opponent to leap over the table and smash my testicles with a hammer if I actually try playing this way.

Fixed.

Ha don't think I'd go that far maybe a gentle squeeze

Waaaaaaagh! wrote: In Any Case, he is subject to the rules that say if you have more than one special CCW you dont get the bonus attack.

Thats when you use 2 different weapons together. You may only use a Maximum of 2 single hand weapons, If you have more then 2 weapons you pick which 2 you will be using.

Tri wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote: In Any Case, he is subject to the rules that say if you have more than one special CCW you dont get the bonus attack.

Thats when you use 2 different weapons together. You may only use a Maximum of 2 single hand weapons, If you have more then 2 weapons you pick which 2 you will be using.

Not to mention that power fists have a rule that states that they do not grant an additional attack unless there are two of them, which is what the Gauntlets count as.

Well, I am of the opinion that having Two Power Fists and a Power Weapon qualifies as "wielding more than one special Weapon", but anywho...

And In All honesty, even I, the Mighty Anal Gwar!, would not make a fuss over a single attack. If anything it just means you wipe me out faster and I can Direct all my shooting at you

wield • verb
1 hold and use (a weapon or tool).
2 have and be able to use (power or influence).

-ing • suffix
1 denoting a verbal action, activity, or result: building.
2 denoting material used for or associated with a process: piping.
3 forming the gerund of verbs (such as painting as in I love painting).

So put the two together and you must be using the weapons. Since you can only Wield 2 weapons at once you must pick which weapons you'll be wielding.

This is where the meaning of the words comes into play. Wields = using. Wields does not mean carrying around. Wielding does not mean equipped with. Wielding means how many weapons are being used at a given moment, ie what weapons are being used in one particular round of combat.

The section of the rules on pg 42 that discusses all the various combinations is titled: Fighting with two single-handed weapons. This should give us a clue that they are talking about wielding/ using two weapons. They are not at all interested on how many weapons the model may be toting around, they only are listing what happens when a model is using various pairs of weapons.


Sliggoth

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:No, I am not saying a Pair of Lighting Claws is one weapon, but please, tell me where it says "Caldar is armed with 2 powerfists". Oh Snap, he isnt..

Yeah, one weapon that counts as two meaning surprise surprise it counts as two. As you pointed out earlier. Looks like you're done.

In Any Case, he is subject to the rules that say if you have more than one special CCW you dont get the bonus attack.

Have a look at that page again, specificly note the fact that the rule is titled 'Fighting with two weapons' meaning its talking about fighting with two weapons, not about the total number of weapons owned by the model. Stop wasting people's time with made up rubbish please, it only wastes your time and ours.

Tri wrote:wield • verb
1 hold and use (a weapon or tool).
2 have and be able to use (power or influence).

-ing • suffix
1 denoting a verbal action, activity, or result: building.
2 denoting material used for or associated with a process: piping.
3 forming the gerund of verbs (such as painting as in I love painting).

So put the two together and you must be using the weapons. Since you can only Wield 2 weapons at once you must pick which weapons you'll be wielding.

Or you could look at the Synonyms:
wield
1 brandish, employ, flourish, handle, manage, manipulate, ply, swing, use
2 apply, be possessed of, command, control, exercise, exert, have, have at one's disposal, hold, maintain, make use of, manage, possess, put to use, utilize



Main Entry:
syn·o·nym
Pronunciation:
\ˈsi-nə-ˌnim\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English sinonyme, from Latin synonymum, from Greek synōnymon, from neuter of synōnymos synonymous, from syn- + onyma name — more at name
Date:
15th century
1: one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses
2 a: a word or phrase that by association is held to embody something (as a concept or quality) b: metonym
3: one of two or more scientific names used to designate the same taxonomic group — compare homonym

Lordhat wrote:

Tri wrote:wield • verb
1 hold and use (a weapon or tool).
2 have and be able to use (power or influence).

-ing • suffix
1 denoting a verbal action, activity, or result: building.
2 denoting material used for or associated with a process: piping.
3 forming the gerund of verbs (such as painting as in I love painting).

So put the two together and you must be using the weapons. Since you can only Wield 2 weapons at once you must pick which weapons you'll be wielding.

Or you could look at the Synonyms:
wield
1 brandish, employ, flourish, handle, manage, manipulate, ply, swing, use
2 apply, be possessed of, command, control, exercise, exert, have, have at one's disposal, hold, maintain, make use of, manage, possess, put to use, utilize

Main Entry:
syn·o·nym
Pronunciation:
\ˈsi-nə-ˌnim\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English sinonyme, from Latin synonymum, from Greek synōnymon, from neuter of synōnymos synonymous, from syn- + onyma name — more at name
Date:
15th century
1: one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses
2 a: a word or phrase that by association is held to embody something (as a concept or quality) b: metonym
3: one of two or more scientific names used to designate the same taxonomic group — compare homonym

Tri, go get the dishes cause you just got served!

I mean that in the friendliest way possible of course

KaloranSLC wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:No, because its Only 1 Weapon (the Gauntlets of Ultramar). It "counts as" two powerfists, but it is only one weapon, and since you cant get the bonus attack if you have more than one different special CCW weapon...

Counts as two power fists = two power fists... no?

Wow I don't even understand how this can be confused...

Dracos wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:No, because its Only 1 Weapon (the Gauntlets of Ultramar). It "counts as" two powerfists, but it is only one weapon, and since you cant get the bonus attack if you have more than one different special CCW weapon...

Counts as two power fists = two power fists... no?

Wow I don't even understand how this can be confused...

Because "Counts as" Two Powerfists does not mean the same as "Is two Powerfists" I suppose.

Lordhat wrote:

Tri wrote:wield • verb
1 hold and use (a weapon or tool).
2 have and be able to use (power or influence).

-ing • suffix
1 denoting a verbal action, activity, or result: building.
2 denoting material used for or associated with a process: piping.
3 forming the gerund of verbs (such as painting as in I love painting).

So put the two together and you must be using the weapons. Since you can only Wield 2 weapons at once you must pick which weapons you'll be wielding.

Or you could look at the Synonyms:
wield
1 brandish, employ, flourish, handle, manage, manipulate, ply, swing, use
2 apply, be possessed of, command, control, exercise, exert, have, have at one's disposal, hold, maintain, make use of, manage, possess, put to use, utilize



Main Entry:
syn·o·nym
Pronunciation:
\ˈsi-nə-ˌnim\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English sinonyme, from Latin synonymum, from Greek synōnymon, from neuter of synōnymos synonymous, from syn- + onyma name — more at name
Date:
15th century
1: one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses
2 a: a word or phrase that by association is held to embody something (as a concept or quality) b: metonym
3: one of two or more scientific names used to designate the same taxonomic group — compare homonym

ah that's the great thing about English one word can mean many things but wielding implies an action that is because all most every single word that gets an -ing add becomes an action. Wield can be to have great power but if you're wielding great power you're using it. He wields a great weapon could be he's holding a great weapon, add an ing and he's using a great weapon .

Before one gets too happy about counting coup, understand that there is a great deal of difference between a definition of a word and a synonym.

A definition gives a precise meaning. The preferred/ exact usage is the first line in the dictionary, as you wander down the entries it gives less common/ exact usages.

A synonym by its very nature gives another word with a similar or related meaning, not an exact match. Using synonyms is what gives those people who translate product instructions into 6 languages so much fun. (translating hot as cool in english, or alternatively as on fire ... when actually wanting to talk about the possibility of an engine overheating)

When we read rules we need to go with the true meaning of the words, not what has been done to muddy the language the last few years. Because when plasma weapons get hot, we arent talking about their popularity.

Sliggoth

I would have thought this is fairly simple.
It "counts as" 2 powerfists.
so in which case you then have a model using 2 power fists with a different name.

They are special CCW's, but he does have 2 the same, so yes, it would grant an extra attack.

When using the Gauntlets of Ultramar, Marneus gains the attack bonus, but is subject to the Initiative rule.

The description clearly defines the Gaunlets as "a matched pair of powerfists". Further, the name itself holds a clue, Gauntlets, not Gauntlet !

If you use the Gauntlets as a pair in a round of combat, you will gain the attack bonus, but be subject to the Initiatve penalty.

If you opt to use the powersword with ONE of the Gauntlets, you lose the attack bonus and are also subject to the Initiative penalty.

Using the sword for ALL of your attacks sarcifices the attack bonus, but is not subject to the Initiative penalty because the powerfists are not being used.

How much more simple does it need to be ?

Reaper6 wrote:When using the Gauntlets of Ultramar, Marneus gains the attack bonus, but is subject to the Initiative rule.

The description clearly defines the Gaunlets as "a matched pair of powerfists". Further, the name itself holds a clue, Gauntlets, not Gauntlet !

If you use the Gauntlets as a pair in a round of combat, you will gain the attack bonus, but be subject to the Initiatve penalty.

If you opt to use the powersword with ONE of the Gauntlets, you lose the attack bonus and are also subject to the Initiative penalty.

Using the sword for ALL of your attacks sarcifices the attack bonus, but is not subject to the Initiative penalty because the powerfists are not being used.

How much more simple does it need to be ?

Utterly wrong.
You Can Choose to either use Both Power Fists or a Power Fist and the Power Sword.
Using the Two Powerfists Gramts you S8 I1 and no Bonus attack because you are weilding more than 1 Special Weapon (2 Power Fists and a Power Sword)
Using the Power Fist and the Power Sword Lets you Choose to make all your attacks at Either S8 I1 or S4 I5, again with no bonus attack because you are weilding more than 1 Special Weapon (2 Power Fists and a Power Sword)

How much more simple does it need to be ?</Sarcasm>

How much more simple does it need to be ?</Sarcasm>

or a Power Fist and the Power Seord.

It would be alot easier is some fether didnt keep adding new weapons into it

Hmm surely "wielding" something means actually holding the damn thing in your hands. If you are using the Two Powerfists, this grants you S8 I1 and a Bonus attack because you are not wielding more than 1 Special Weapon (Power Sword is not being wielded at that time, its sheathed)

Gwar! wrote:Utterly wrong.
You Can Choose to either use Both Power Fists or a Power Fist and the Power Seord.
Using the Two Powerfists Gramts you S8 I1 and no Bonus attack because you are weilding more than 1 Special Weapon (2 Power Fists and a Power Sword)
Using the Power Fist and the Power Sword Lets you Choose to make all your attacks at Either S8 I1 or S4 I5, again with no bonus attack because you are weilding more than 1 Special Weapon (2 Power Fists and a Power Sword)

How much more simple does it need to be ?</Sarcasm>

Gwar this is my last word on this since you seem to have it stuck in you head that all weapons cumulate together. The very top of the heading says

Fighting with Two single-handed weapons
Some models are equipped with two single handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules below for the different possible combinations...

So what do we get from that?
1)We can only fight with 2 single hand weapons max
2)We are using the weapons
3)We pick the rule for the Weapons combination we're using