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Are eldar guardians on any use anymore

I use them, and they do the job for me.

Some people have never liked them. Some people have never found the right use for them.

Most people play them as 10 guys with bright lance to sit on your own objective, others use them as an infantry horde with an avatar as they are cheap enough to do that. I would rather like the looks of 6 squads of 20 storm guardians with an Avatar and 2 Wraithlords but thats just be and it has very little anti tank aside from the Wraithlords.

I see. It seemed like no one likes them anymore with the DA being more effective. I agree that most people seem to use them as baby sitters for objectives. Chromdog in your experience how did you use them for then baby sitting?

Scatter laser, warlock and a squad size of 15. Farseer nearby helps, but I don't always field one (and I've NEVER used Eldrad).

Two units. I'm usually playing at 1850-2000pts though, where I'll field 4-5 troops units and a couple of elites.

Thanks that seems like a much more effictive technique.
Last time I played was under 2nd edition rules with lasguns of 24 inch ranges and a scatter laser and no warlock. It was effective then but now with catapults at 12 inches you have too many losses before you can shoot with guardians. I am just getting back into the game and my first outing was a disaster with 90% casualties in 3 turns. Thanks again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry I meant most of my army in 3 turns. I lost one guardian squad in first turn as there is no similuataneous fire anymore.

rzsanguine wrote:It seemed like no one likes them anymore with the DA being more effective.

That's just GW-Pattern Pendulum Game Design at its finest. Last Codex no one used DA's, and people used Guardians. In this Codex people use DA's, but don't use Guardians. In the next edition it'll flip around again (and we might get a new Guardian kit to go with it). This is fairly normal for everything GW does.

And some people just think that the idea of Expendable Meatshield White Collar Deskjockey Militia Elves with FoamDisc Guns That Don't Shoot Far is stupid for a "dying race" that supposedly goes to war with the fastest, nastiest elite specialists in the Galaxy.

I use storm guardians with flamers and a destructor warlock in my army. Even though this unit is situationally very destructive (such as against the horde-ork player I fought tonight) it still costs too many points when you factor in the units lack of durability, and mediocre-at-best CC skill.

They also need a wave serpent to be effective, which drives the cost of the unit up even more.

Honestly, Guardian Defenders just suck for the points you pay for them. For the same price as two Guard Infantry Squads, you get a 10 man guardian squad with one heavy weapon... and their stats are functionally identical, only the silly thing is that lasguns are actually better weapons for weak troops because of their halfway-decent range.

They are poets and philosophers. Better leave them home.

On the other hand, 10 Storm Guardians with 2 flamers and a Warlock with destructor in a Serpent is a viable option. Such a unit is only useful in a mech army.

Guardian Defenders with a weapon platform are an option in an army that includes an Avatar so that the Guardians can stay in the Avatar's fearless bubble. Such an army is mainly footslogging.

willydstyle wrote:Honestly, Guardian Defenders just suck for the points you pay for them.

What he said. You are better off just Playing Jetbike Eldar and be done with it.

Gwar! wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Honestly, Guardian Defenders just suck for the points you pay for them.

What he said. You are better off just Playing Jetbike Eldar and be done with it.

And the sad fact of the matter is that you don't even really get much for your points with jetbike Eldar. Orks and SM bikes are more durable, and have better firepower, and their upgrade characters don't cost as much and add more to the unit (especially in CC w/ power fists/klaws).

Well there goes everything I was ever told about Eldar.

Are they actually useful at all compared to newer codex's?

Gwar! wrote:Well there goes everything I was ever told about Eldar.

Are they actually useful at all compared to newer codex's?

They definitely have some strengths.

When I play at tournaments with comp, I get screwed because I won't make my army weak by loading up on troops like they want me to.

The good Eldar units are the ones that actually give you a good amount of destruction for the points costs.

Warwalkers, warp spiders, fire dragons, wraithlords, fire prisms, some of the phoenix lords, dark reapers, harlequins, farseers, Maugan Ra, the Avatar, jetbike warlocks, these are the units that I've seen be "worth it" the most, of course specific units going better with specific army builds. So the trick is to take enough troops to still be able to win a game, while minimizing the number of points on troops so you can maximize the number of units that are actually good at killing things.

Another problem with Eldar troops is that with the efficacy of anti-personnel and cove-save-denying weapons in 5th ed, they need transports. Transports mean Waveserpents, and while they seem to be significantly better armed and armored than other armies' transports (barring land raiders) they also cost three to four times as much as other armies' transports. For about the same firepower as a chimera, and the same front armor as a chimera, a waveserpent costs as much as two chimeras, even with minimal equipment. Plus, troops can fire effective weapons out the top hatch of a chimera, an advantage that waveserpents simply don't have.

What waveserpents are good at is tank-shocking large numbers of enemy units in one go, but most armies have ways of minimizing the impact of morale rules.

Extremely.

In my opinion, a 20-strong guardian unit w/ a bright lance and a warlock w/ "Conceal" can be pretty darned tough on defense. Parking it on an objective and hoping my opponent shoots at it instead of more effective specialty troops can be danged handy.

I footslog with Eldar (I know, I know) and only one or two units actually have their own "taxi," so it's also quite useful as a moving screen, giving smaller, more expensive specialty units a "cover" save as well.

Commissar Molotov wrote:In my opinion, a 20-strong guardian unit w/ a bright lance and a warlock w/ "Conceal" can be pretty darned tough on defense. Parking it on an objective and hoping my opponent shoots at it instead of more effective specialty troops can be danged handy.

I footslog with Eldar (I know, I know) and only one or two units actually have their own "taxi," so it's also quite useful as a moving screen, giving smaller, more expensive specialty units a "cover" save as well.

Until your opponent brings a hell-hound or two... or deepstriking flamers, or just assaults them.

Hey, any attention the Guardians are getting means my opponent's troops aren't shooting at my more expensive stuff!

Commissar Molotov wrote:Hey, any attention the Guardians are getting means my opponent's troops aren't shooting at my more expensive stuff!

But by the time you deck them out so much... they are the more expensive stuff! And they don't even kill things that well for how many points you're shelling out. I just think that with 85% of the army being T3, if you're not buying units that do good damage for the points you're paying you're doing yourself a disfavor.

Guardian Defenders work really well with an Eldar Missile Launcher since their BS isn't really taken into account with the template. It's also a relatively cheap upgrade. Couple Defenders with a Conceallock, and they can sit out in the open with a 5+ cover (which can turn into a 4+ if they go to ground) and becomes even more annoying with fortune. They are tough to dig out with shooting, with more bodies for cheaper than a Dire Avenger Squad.

Storm Guardians are best with 2x Flamers and a Destruct-lock in a wave serpent. They work very well in a mechanized list.

The Edar have been handicapped with catapult range for being an advanced race

willydstyle wrote:

Commissar Molotov wrote:Hey, any attention the Guardians are getting means my opponent's troops aren't shooting at my more expensive stuff!

But by the time you deck them out so much... they are the more expensive stuff! And they don't even kill things that well for how many points you're shelling out. I just think that with 85% of the army being T3, if you're not buying units that do good damage for the points you're paying you're doing yourself a disfavor.

Well - there's plenty of other stuff in my Eldar army that can dish it out - but those twenty wounds with a 5+ (4+ go to ground) cover save is the one unit that can actually take it!

...Maybe I'll model a "kick me" sign instead of a standard for the unit!

Thanks for the techiniques I am just getting use to the new rules

I just think guardians lack focus. They are defenders with really short range, assault two guns. Such guns dont really matter because the last thing you want your eldar to be doing is running towards the enemy shooting then going into combat.

Pathfinders will hold an objective better (+2 to cover saves) successfully kill more stuff and have alot more synergy between their function and their weaponry.

Pathfinders have snipers, perfect weapons for staying still in cover and shooting with.

Guardians have shuriken cannons, which are mediocre weapons at best, but almost useless on a defencive squad.

Pathfinders will hold an objective better (+2 to cover saves) successfully kill more stuff and have alot more synergy between their function and their weaponry.

Well, Pathfinders get more and more in danger to be shot to pieces from far due to the increasing number of weapons (blast/ordnance) that ignore armor saves.

wuestenfux wrote:

Pathfinders will hold an objective better (+2 to cover saves) successfully kill more stuff and have alot more synergy between their function and their weaponry.

Well, Pathfinders get more and more in danger to be shot to pieces from far due to the increasing number of weapons (blast/ordnance) that ignore armor saves.

That's a very good point. A friend of mine used to run a lot of Pathfinders, but rarely does now as the all comers list now carries a lot of Flamers and such (Drop Pod Sternguard with Combi Flamers or Drop Pod IronClad = Dead Pathfinders) as well as the Local Guard Player taking a lot of Nova Cannons to get rid of them

I remember the former incarnation of the Eldar codex, when Alaitoc had this annoying disruption table. There were basically no weapons ignoring cover.

I use them variously as paperweights (in large numbers of course), ass-scratchers, ammunition, target practice, firelighters, and brick-holders (which doesn't usually work).

It sucks that GW completely handicapped the guardians with that shor range. In earliier versions both the lasgun and shuiken catapults were 24 inches only catapults were really expensive guardians squads. As I have the old lead guardians I too have a lot of paper weights. I do see having 15 gurdians with a bright lance or rocket launcher and warlock as a useful tool for sitting on objectives and harassing enmies.

Honestly, they could fix it by making their weapons have 2 firing modes like Missile Launchers, Assault 2 at 12" and Assault 1 at 24. Simple really.

Or even simpler, make them rapid fire and give them relentless