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In the earlier rule editions guardians could use both lasgun and catapults which had a 24 inch range and the save modifer was 1 and 2 respectively. The lasgun was S/3 and catapult S/4 and the catapult was more expensive. 'Since save modifier isn't used anymore only the AP can give instant wound. I think GW didn't want the Eldar catapult to equal their darling SM rapid fire or range.

Or be useful at all.

I dunno, I regularly use Storm Guardians w/ 2 Flamers and Destructor in a WS. Not only can they dish out alot of punishment (especially with Doom), but they can babysit my CC WLs as they charge forward. They work great for me.

Alerian wrote:I dunno, I regularly use Storm Guardians w/ 2 Flamers and Destructor in a WS. Not only can they dish out alot of punishment (especially with Doom), but they can babysit my CC WLs as they charge forward. They work great for me.

I use that unit as well... and no matter how you slice it, 11 T3 5+ save wounds (one has a 4+ save, woo!) are simply not worth 130ish points. Especially when you can have 20+ guard or orks for that cost. With the 5+ saving throw, they only get their saves against the most lackluster of weapons, so Fortune doesn't even help them survive that much.

willydstyle wrote:

Alerian wrote:I dunno, I regularly use Storm Guardians w/ 2 Flamers and Destructor in a WS. Not only can they dish out alot of punishment (especially with Doom), but they can babysit my CC WLs as they charge forward. They work great for me.

I use that unit as well... and no matter how you slice it, 11 T3 5+ save wounds (one has a 4+ save, woo!) are simply not worth 130ish points. Especially when you can have 20+ guard or orks for that cost. With the 5+ saving throw, they only get their saves against the most lackluster of weapons, so Fortune doesn't even help them survive that much.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that they aren't over costed. However, in our current Dex, there is very little that can put out as much hurt on infantry for 130points as that unit can. I am just saying that in our overcosted current codex, Stormies are still a decent buy...especially if you are running WLs and need a babysitter for them. By using gaurdians to babysit the WLs, you free up the council to hunt elsewhere.

I never claimed that they were a perfect unit, just that they still have uses in 5th

Hmmm

Without Bladestorm, point-for-point I find Guardians far more effective that DAs.

I want more Guardians actually. Thanks for reminding me.

Tek wrote:Without Bladestorm, point-for-point I find Guardians far more effective that DAs.

I want more Guardians actually. Thanks for reminding me.

With proper play, DAs can get shooting initiative on shoota boyz. Guardians can't, except for the one heavy weapon platform.

my entire army is based on Blade Storm. my army is based on two dire Avenger Squads, both with a farseer and Wave Serpent. I try and get them both to blade storm on the second turn with doom and guide and usually blow away any unit I focus on, no matter how strong it is, just through weight of shots.

And the "not being able to shoot next turn" rule really doesnt effect me because I just jump into my wave Serpents and reposition myself for another bladestorm the time after >
Guardians could never do that!

I am thinking warlock and 11 guardians with scatter laser in wave serpent with scatter lasers and shuriken cannon.

rzsanguine wrote:I am thinking warlock and 11 guardians with scatter laser in wave serpent with scatter lasers and shuriken cannon.

You can keep thinking that. It's a troops choice, but it's not good for much.

Why would you have both a shuriken cannon and a scatter laser, you cant fire both if you want to move any real distance?

I dont mean to be rude but that says to me that your very new to Eldar?


let me just show you something.

lets assume that when your men jump out the back of the wave serpent they are within twelve inches of your opponent. lets call it Imperial Guard troops

thats 22 shuriken shots, half miss, 2/3 wound. Thats 7 guys dead.

Now the scatter laser in the unit half miss, so two hits. on average both will wound so thats 2 dead.

Now the scatter laser on the wave serpent. Once again half miss, but as its twinlinked you can reroll misses. So mathmatically three should hit. Once again they should all wound so thats 3 dead.

thats 12 guys dead.


Now the Dire Avengers blade storming

32 shots. (9x3,1x5 from the Exarch) 2/3 hit, so 21 hit. 2/3 of them will wound so thats 14 guys dead.

Then the scatter laser kills 3 guys once again.

17 enemies dead.

5 more guys at twelve inch range.

at higher than 12 inch range Guardians will kill five guys as their shuriken catapults are useless, but the Dire Avengers will still kill 17 guys.

Dire Avengers are 152 points for Exarch, Dual Shuriken catapults and Bladestorm.

Guardians are 127 points for 11 Guardians, Scatter Laser and Warlock.Not including upgrades on the Warlock.

for the points difference Dire Avengers kill so much more at a better range. And have the amazing Guided/doom bladestorm combo.

28 hits, 25 wounds, all dead against Imperial Guard troops.

Dire Avengers have a fantastic killing potential that not many units in the entire Eldar codex can equal. They are more than just filler for your two troops choice, they are actually powerful in their own right. If they were elites, i'd still take them

But....

Stormies with 2x Flamers and Destructor will kill even more of those same guardmen than Bladestorming DAs, especially if you tank shock to bunch them up. Also, they cost fewer points, and provide a Warlock to babysit a nearby WL.

Guardian Defenders have a place as well, as they can sit back at range in a footslogging force, while babysitting 1-2 EML+BL WLs, thus creating a firebase (even beter with Embolden).

Comparing DAs to Guardians (of either variety) is like comparing Apples to Oranges. Sure, they are both fruit (or in this case troops choices) but that is where the comparison ends. Each has a different role.

At point blank range, burnie Stormies win hands down.
At mid range, the DAs ar by far the best choice.
At longe range, only the Defenders even have the chance to hit anything.
Throw WLs into your list, and Guardians + Warlocks are even more tempting thanks to Wraithsight

You just have to pick the right tool for the job at hand. I don't try to hammer in a nail with a wrench...

I did think I probably was wasting points on the guardians with the DAs being more effective. This was an old army from ten years. I guess they will be babysiters until I can get another wave serpent and squad of DAs. I am just returning from a long hiatus and it really is a different game from the old days. I accept the ideas and criticism as they are meant to be as of help and not of offense.

Alerian wrote:
Guardian Defenders have a place as well, as they can sit back at range in a footslogging force, while babysitting 1-2 EML+BL WLs, thus creating a firebase (even beter with Embolden).

This is exactly how I run my (1750 points with three units or 12 guardians/BL/Warlock with embolden.)

Take second turn, if I can.

Keep all three squads in reserve.

Come in on turn 2 (2x autarchs) *from anywhere on the long edge*.

Snipe vehicles from a distance getting side shots where I can while going to secure one or two objectives. The rest of the army goes after the opponents two or three troop choices.

I try to keep units spaced enough they can't be multi charged but close enough that they can fire SC's at the assaulters (if my guardians lose, which is probably)

The main strengths I see are the following:

- move and fire heavy weapon that even LR have to watch. odds are good the three BL's will get one roll on a land raider. The ability to come in on reserve protects the unit until they get the first shot off and you can place them far enough away from vehicles and cc units that are the biggest threats. With Mech becoming more common these guys make a nice secondary AT choice.

- rerollable LD tests are huge. With thirteen in a unit they have to get four kills in the first round of shooting to force the roll. This makes knocking them off an objective (especially in cover) difficult without assaulting. Makes them harder to get a easy KP.

- cheap scoring unit. I used to run Pathfinders but they just get creamed too easily by templates and cc and for the price of six Pathfinders I get 13 wounds, rerollable LD, and some move and fire AT to camp objectives. The ability to move towards an objective/away from a transport *and* shoot the heavy weapon is great and what makes this unit a game winner. Tank shock? If I lose the BL gunner (chances are I won't) I have a second and a singing spear for the follow up attacks.

- don't need Farseer support to make them a lot better so I can run my two exarchs.

In one game a unit of DSing termies inflicted 11 wounds on two of my units (turn three and four), in the open. Between going to ground for a 6+ and getting my rerolled LD I was able to hang on to three guys in each unit and keep them scoring. By then I had taken care of most of the rest of his army with my good stuff.

I really like these guys and for the points they do their job. Grab a couple of objectives and pop a couple of tanks.

Refresh my memory please, can a unit of Guardian Defenders have two heavy weapon teams now? I really don't LIKE the idea of Guardians, but I have plenty of them from wayback, and two heavies per squad would definitely make them more useful.

I don't have the codex in front of me but I think it was one heavy weapon manned by two guardians per squad. You could buy a heavy weapons squad of 1 to 3 platforms but I think it was limited to doom weaver or vibro cannon. I too have plenty of those lead guardians.
Good idea on tactical use of guardians.

Any other Eldar players out there with observations or information?

I think the majority of the points for and against Guardians have been said, anything else will probably just be repeating earlier posts.

Railguns wrote:Refresh my memory please, can a unit of Guardian Defenders have two heavy weapon teams now? I really don't LIKE the idea of Guardians, but I have plenty of them from wayback, and two heavies per squad would definitely make them more useful.

no, it is still one platform per unit of guardian defenders, and a unit of defenders MUST have one. Don't worry, you're not alone. I have 11 sets of weapon crew and defender weapons platforms. This isn't counting the HS support battery crews.

The support batteries are different. Artillery units (guns can be destroyed now), consisting of 1-3 multiples of 1 gun+2 crew. This is where the Shadow weaver, D-cannon or V-cannon come in.

Funnily enough, I have the opposite problem.

My 2nd ed army had only Aspect Warriors (none of which were Dire Avengers) as troops.

In 3rd, I bought a couple of boxes of Defenders. Now in the latest book, I have just over 30 Guardians and possibly a single platform between them all!

You need another platform or ten DAs. Maybe you can borrow a platform weapon if you have any Eldar friends.

rzsanguine wrote:You need another platform or ten DAs. Maybe you can borrow a platform weapon if you have any Eldar friends.

Oh, I redid the army. I bought 30 Dire Avengers, pushed the existing aspect squads to full size and purchased a bunch of Wave Serpents (starting with a FW one before they released the plastic one...)

I've just sold some gun platforms and crews (not weapons - the clubmember I sold them to already had weapons for them.

ok