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I think 5e is all about the force bubble. You take a charcater that juices all your other units keep them tight deploy objectives on top of each other and mop up. People don't understand that kill points balances against this so the lack of these missions only amplifies the force bubble.

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That's fine if your army codex gives you a character that can boost everything around them. I've just begun collecting SoB and don't really have anything that can do that; apart from lots of 'Book of St.broken's'. The Chars that i can take are best suited for going solo.

Here are some of the more powerful force bubble lists:

Lash spam - the lash princes pull you in so that the rest of the army can destroy you. Lash breaks all the rules of a tactical game if you have no counters such as a hood.

Fateweaver Blood Crusher spam - the big wave drops right beside for a turn, sucks up all your retribution for one turn then proceeds to smash you. There are very few counters to stop this except for the inherent randomness of daemonic horde armies which can easily be diluted by knowing Chaos veterans. I think the main reason why this list is not more popular is that most people are not comfortable deep striking their entire army. The ability to deep strike an entire army of hard core assault units that always get a save at the bare minimum trumps everything else.

Nob bikers is another bubble force by way of fielding complex units that also always get a save and the warboss plus boss poles and the Waaagh banner. This army is a highly mobile force bubble that gets right up in your face.

Space Marines are all about the force bubble and only now are people realizing how to go about captilizing on this style of play. Each SM special character is basically a multiplier for force bubbles. There are so many to choose from that the water is a bit murky as to which are the best to bare. Personally I think the best two combos are Vulkan/Lysander and Dante/Corbulo.

Another Chaos daemonic horde force bubble is the Tally Man.

Older codices such as SoB that have not been updated were written before the force bubble approach came into full strength so throwing them out there is basically comparing apples to oranges. Sure they can't force bubble but they were never intended to.

I see Eldrad as the penultimate example of the first special character designed to force bubble an army. The sole exception to Eldrad is the Black Templars' Emperor's Champion. You can also easily make the case that Tyranids synapse is also a force bubble.

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Any other thoughts?

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I admit, you've completely lost me.

Don't forget the KFF+vehicles.

Also, Eldar Jetseer council that has a similar "come into this circle and die" effect as the nob bikers do.

Can't leave out the Avatar and his 24" Fearless buff.

"Guardians, charge with me now, for the Craftworld, and in defense of all things pretty and stylish!"

EDIT for stupid additional thought: Maybe me makes them fearless with a big "Follow me to the free elderberry wine!" sign on his molten back.

KaloranSLC wrote:I admit, you've completely lost me.

I think the confusion is stemming from his use of "force multiplier" and "force bubble" interchangeably. Obviously Lash is a multiplier, but I don't understand how that (or Nob Bikers) constitutes a "bubble." A bubble in this context usually denotes some aura/influence radiating a limited distance from a single point (thus creating a sphere). A force bubble is a type of multiplier, but a multiplier is not necessarily a bubble.

That being said, the entire game is obviously about force multipliers of various types. Finding the most combinations of multipliers that yield the highest output for the least amount of points is the cornerstone of competitive list building.

If Eldrad is the penultimate example, which character do you think is the ultimate?

I meant the Emperor's Champion.

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You have to be careful with the avatar though. There are instances where you don't want your units to be fearless.

Danny Internets wrote:
That being said, the entire game is obviously about force multipliers of various types. Finding the most combinations of multipliers that yield the highest output for the least amount of points is the cornerstone of competitive list building.

You, sir, have arm-barred the correct.

Danny Internets wrote:That being said, the entire game is obviously about force multipliers of various types. Finding the most combinations of multipliers that yield the highest output for the least amount of points is the cornerstone of competitive list building.

As a friend commented this week, 40k is becoming more like Warmachine. Lots of Special Characters running around. Lots of combos and bonuses.

Danny Internets wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:I admit, you've completely lost me.

I think the confusion is stemming from his use of "force multiplier" and "force bubble" interchangeably.

....

That being said, the entire game is obviously about force multipliers of various types. Finding the most combinations of multipliers that yield the highest output for the least amount of points is the cornerstone of competitive list building.

Agreed on both points. I think 'bubble' connotates a geographical layout that is obliterated by multiple blast templates.

Not if they destroy you first.

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Fak my post was appended !!!

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'Come into the circle and die' is a straightforward tactics if you field the right army. It can simplify the game/tactics considerably.