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After I read the SM codex, i was really annoyed that there were 2 or 3 1st-founding chapters that had been forgotten!! I so badly want to find out what the others are. I'm pretty sure that Blood Ravens are one of them . Anyone got any ideas for the rest?

why were you annoyed
but no blood ravens arent ones im sure

Highly doubt the Blood Ravens are one of the 1st chapters. Since none of the other 1st founding chapters even mentions them in any way, not even as a passing remark about fighting alongside them during The Great Crusade or the Horus Heresy, I bet the legions were wiped from all records and suffered a fate similar to that of the missing Primarchs.

It wrote:After I read the SM codex, i was really annoyed that there were 2 or 3 1st-founding chapters that had been forgotten!! I so badly want to find out what the others are. I'm pretty sure that Blood Ravens are one of them . Anyone got any ideas for the rest?

You shouldn't mix legions and chapters.

Space marine legions were founded early and had also a primarch per legion.
There were 20 of them, but 2 are mentioned as "lost" in at least all codices/BRB since 3rd edition.

Chapters are the creations of second founding after the heresy. Some BL authors use "chapters" also as organizational structure in their pre-heresy books.
Could be confusing sometimes.

Sure and set actually are the 18 legions noticed in Codex SM and Codex (renegade)CSM.

The Blood ravens are NOT a first founding, hints point more into geneseed from the Thousand sons used for their creation.

Common belief is that GW left the 2 legions as "lost" to open some space to imagine your own "legion".

If i had to guess, i would try to find out the special abilities of all renown legions and assume from there what is missing.

"Invisibility" is, maybe, one of the powers of one of the 'lost' Primarchs...

Its to allow players to make their own chapters / legions and yet still be able to exist with the rest of the fluff. Chances are, they will never add the two missing legions, don't lose any sleep over it.

Ok, all of you think that the BR weren't a legion (thanks for correction 1hadhq), but in DoW, it says that they were looking for info about their long-lost Primarch.

Alpharius wrote:"Invisibility" is, maybe, one of the powers of one of the 'lost' Primarchs...

LOL! Yeah, and the ability to remain reeeeeeeeaallly quiet....

1hadhq wrote:Common belief is that GW left the 2 legions as "lost" to open some space to imagine your own "legion".

My belief is that GW purposely hold them back as a sales technique should everything go tits up.

"ZOMG! The 19th and 20th Legions have been found! What do you know, one's good; one's evil! But they're super-awesome!
Introducing Codex: Super Space Marines and Codex: Super Chaos Space Marines"

Well, technically, I think they are the II and XI legions, but, yes, I agree with you!

There is NO doubt in my mind that one day, GW WILL reveal all about the missing legions.

If for no other reason than the cash it will generate.

Alpharius wrote:Well, technically, I think they are the II and XI legions, but, yes, I agree with you!

There is NO doubt in my mind that one day, GW WILL reveal all about the missing legions.

If for no other reason than the cash it will generate.

Some sort of info on them would make a perfect finale for the HH novels IMO.

It wrote:Ok, all of you think that the BR weren't a legion (thanks for correction 1hadhq), but in DoW, it says that they were looking for info about their long-lost Primarch.

Chapters refer to the Primarch of their parent chapter as 'theirs', which is why the Crimson Fists have battlecries about Rogal Dorn and stuff.

A little point on the Blood Ravens. They're apparently spawned from a Traitor Legion, but I think it's actually the Word Bearers, which explains the great shame that they carry and why Eliphas the Inheritor calls Davian Thule 'brother'.

But on-topic, everyone knows tht Legion II is Sly Marbo.

I thought in the tech priest HH novel they are mentioned by Dorn. I dont have the book here so i cant post pages

Aint BR from every chapter, like different ones, that why they say "for the lost primarchs" or something, cause they dont have a primarch.


( i know there second founding but chapters that spawned off legions, still include primarch in there battle cry)

Before anyone says Grey knights are second founding.

I would say that gw will never tell us.

The reason? well its in case you want to start your own chapter that has only just emerged so maby the primarch crawled out of a rock with some marines.

This is what i think anyway.

Interestingly, though, neither of the 'lost' primarchs have been mentioned in the HH books, which suggests that they were lost before or during the great crusade.

Is it too starange to suggest that one of the 20 primarchs was actually 'lost' when the pods were scattered.

Or that one fought against the emperor in the great crusade, similar to Angron electing not to join the Imperium??

If the primarch was lost then there is no reason for the records to be expunged. For this to happen the legions in question must have done some ultimate act of treason or are being hidden for some secret purpose. Maybe they all had sex changes and became the first battle sisters.

We certainly don't need them to make up our own chapters, that part is covered by there being a 1000 or more chapters and only a handful have been officially named.

ArbitorIan wrote:Interestingly, though, neither of the 'lost' primarchs have been mentioned in the HH books, which suggests that they were lost before or during the great crusade.

Is it too starange to suggest that one of the 20 primarchs was actually 'lost' when the pods were scattered.

Or that one fought against the emperor in the great crusade, similar to Angron electing not to join the Imperium??

Actually, they are mentioned.

Or at least, referenced.

And it has been stated that ALL 20 Primarchs were found, and that ALL 20 took part in at least some stage of the Great Crusade...

Perhaps the Primarchs were deleted from Imperial Records intentionally?

ArbitorIan wrote:Interestingly, though, neither of the 'lost' primarchs have been mentioned in the HH books, which suggests that they were lost before or during the great crusade.

Yes they were not mentioned in the sense that they were fighting alongside them but they are mentioned. In horus rising when Horus is wounded, taken to davin and goes into that dream/vision/whatever it mentions on e of them.


From lexicanum

As Horus lay in coma inside the Davinite temple after being wounded by Eugen Temba, Erebus gave him visions that showed him events from various points in time. In one of these experiences, Horus found himself in the geno-vault where he was created, and looked down upon the genetor-tanks containing the infant Primarchs. At one point he stops before tank XI and reflects upon the "untapped glories that lay within, knowing they would never come to pass". This refers to one of the unknown Primarchs. Later on, Horus' anger takes control and he smashes his fist upon tank XI, damaging it. Shortly after, a vortex swoops up all the genetor-tanks and scatters them across the galaxy.

Whether Horus smashing the pod means anything is unclear as it's not clear whether it is a dream or they're actually there or what. The "untapped glories that lay within, knowing they would never come to pass". part says a lot though.

Considering that the Black Library writers have said the secrets revealed in Legion aren't the 'biggest' that they're going to spring on the readers, I think we'll find out more about the Lost Primarchs. Whether we find out all the juicy details, or just some general ones (like their names), or even their fates - I don't know. I think we'll find out what their fates are.

There were some bigs secrets 'revealed' in Mechanicum too, though I'm hoping that's not what they were talking about and that we'll get some more of the two Lost Legions.

I don't know. I kind of like the idea of speculation. It leads to all sort of cools stuff.

Is the Emperor going to die or will he come back?
If the Emperor does die will the Lion wake?
Is Cypher really a chaos agent or does he know how to wake the Lion?
Is the Machine God a C'tan?
Did the Necrons hibernate because the 'nids ate everything?
Do the Eldar have the technology to kill the C'tans?
Do the Eldar have the technology to destoy Slanesh?
Do the 'nids really have a hive mind that ultimately controls all 'nids?
Are one of the C'tan the hive mind?
Did the C'tan create the Tau (the only non other non psykers)?
Where did the Tau Ethereal cast come from?
Is Farsight being controled by Chaos or does he know who is really in charge?
Why can't Chaos just get along?
And one of my favorites: Is the entire Warhammer Universe based on the small fairly insignificant struggles of one planet in an entire universe of war and if so is Emperor Karl Franz an unrealized Primarch that got lost in the warp and landed on this forgotten planet?

These all would be great if they were answered once and for all but think of how it would feel a moment after you read everything. It would be awful. I've had hours of entertainment debating this stuff with my friends. Especially my friends that bring out info from previous codexs lie the Star Child Emperor Cult in the 3rd ed IG Codex I think. I think the speculation just has to be there.

Commissar wrote:I don't know. I kind of like the idea of speculation. It leads to all sort of cools stuff.

Is the Emperor going to die or will he come back?
If the Emperor does die will the Lion wake?
Is Cypher really a chaos agent or does he know how to wake the Lion?
Is the Machine God a C'tan?
Did the Necrons hibernate because the 'nids ate everything?
Do the Eldar have the technology to kill the C'tans?
Do the Eldar have the technology to destoy Slanesh?
Do the 'nids really have a hive mind that ultimately controls all 'nids?
Are one of the C'tan the hive mind?
Did the C'tan create the Tau (the only non other non psykers)?
Where did the Tau Ethereal cast come from?
Is Farsight being controled by Chaos or does he know who is really in charge?
Why can't Chaos just get along?
And one of my favorites: Is the entire Warhammer Universe based on the small fairly insignificant struggles of one planet in an entire universe of war and if so is Emperor Karl Franz an unrealized Primarch that got lost in the warp and landed on this forgotten planet?

These all would be great if they were answered once and for all but think of how it would feel a moment after you read everything. It would be awful. I've had hours of entertainment debating this stuff with my friends. Especially my friends that bring out info from previous codexs lie the Star Child Emperor Cult in the 3rd ed IG Codex I think. I think the speculation just has to be there.

Actually, originally Sigmar was going to be a Primarch, but they've been trying to distance the two properties since then.

Ah, yes, the Tau... my question is are they the last creation of the Ancients as a final weapon against the Necrons? Philosophically, they're as far removed from the Omnicidal necrons as one can get...

BaronIveagh wrote:

Commissar wrote:I don't know. I kind of like the idea of speculation. It leads to all sort of cools stuff.

Is the Emperor going to die or will he come back?
If the Emperor does die will the Lion wake?
Is Cypher really a chaos agent or does he know how to wake the Lion?
Is the Machine God a C'tan?
Did the Necrons hibernate because the 'nids ate everything?
Do the Eldar have the technology to kill the C'tans?
Do the Eldar have the technology to destoy Slanesh?
Do the 'nids really have a hive mind that ultimately controls all 'nids?
Are one of the C'tan the hive mind?
Did the C'tan create the Tau (the only non other non psykers)?
Where did the Tau Ethereal cast come from?
Is Farsight being controled by Chaos or does he know who is really in charge?
Why can't Chaos just get along?
And one of my favorites: Is the entire Warhammer Universe based on the small fairly insignificant struggles of one planet in an entire universe of war and if so is Emperor Karl Franz an unrealized Primarch that got lost in the warp and landed on this forgotten planet?

These all would be great if they were answered once and for all but think of how it would feel a moment after you read everything. It would be awful. I've had hours of entertainment debating this stuff with my friends. Especially my friends that bring out info from previous codexs lie the Star Child Emperor Cult in the 3rd ed IG Codex I think. I think the speculation just has to be there.

Actually, originally Sigmar was going to be a Primarch, but they've been trying to distance the two properties since then.

Ah, yes, the Tau... my question is are they the last creation of the Ancients as a final weapon against the Necrons? Philosophically, they're as far removed from the Omnicidal necrons as one can get...

See what I mean. If GW answers these questions for us what do we have left. You know what we have. We have the LOTR and though it's cool to rehash some of the battles from the book. It's nothing compared to not knowing what the future holds and feeling we have a little part in determining it.

@Baron Iveagh - So the Old Ones after creating psychic races that created a Chaos God out of their excesses and created a race that couldn't contol their more base desires that now Waaaaaaaander the universe killing everything, decide now to skip the whole psychic thing and with their last gasp create a race without psychic ability so they wouldn't finish off what the other races started. Wouldn't it have been better for them to have simply taught their kids a little restraint. I do agree that if you going to go after a race like the Necrons that creating a race with a weapon like the Railgun isn't a bad place to start.

Commissar wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Commissar wrote:I don't know. I kind of like the idea of speculation. It leads to all sort of cools stuff.

Is the Emperor going to die or will he come back?
If the Emperor does die will the Lion wake?
Is Cypher really a chaos agent or does he know how to wake the Lion?
Is the Machine God a C'tan?
Did the Necrons hibernate because the 'nids ate everything?
Do the Eldar have the technology to kill the C'tans?
Do the Eldar have the technology to destoy Slanesh?
Do the 'nids really have a hive mind that ultimately controls all 'nids?
Are one of the C'tan the hive mind?
Did the C'tan create the Tau (the only non other non psykers)?
Where did the Tau Ethereal cast come from?
Is Farsight being controled by Chaos or does he know who is really in charge?
Why can't Chaos just get along?
And one of my favorites: Is the entire Warhammer Universe based on the small fairly insignificant struggles of one planet in an entire universe of war and if so is Emperor Karl Franz an unrealized Primarch that got lost in the warp and landed on this forgotten planet?

These all would be great if they were answered once and for all but think of how it would feel a moment after you read everything. It would be awful. I've had hours of entertainment debating this stuff with my friends. Especially my friends that bring out info from previous codexs lie the Star Child Emperor Cult in the 3rd ed IG Codex I think. I think the speculation just has to be there.

Actually, originally Sigmar was going to be a Primarch, but they've been trying to distance the two properties since then.

Ah, yes, the Tau... my question is are they the last creation of the Ancients as a final weapon against the Necrons? Philosophically, they're as far removed from the Omnicidal necrons as one can get...

See what I mean. If GW answers these questions for us what do we have left. You know what we have. We have the LOTR and though it's cool to rehash some of the battles from the book. It's nothing compared to not knowing what the future holds and feeling we have a little part in determining it.

@Baron Iveagh - So the Old Ones after creating psychic races that created a Chaos God out of their excesses and created a race that couldn't contol their more base desires that now Waaaaaaaander the universe killing everything, decide now to skip the whole psychic thing and with their last gasp create a race without psychic ability so they wouldn't finish off what the other races started. Wouldn't it have been better for them to have simply taught their kids a little restraint. I do agree that if you going to go after a race like the Necrons that creating a race with a weapon like the Railgun isn't a bad place to start.

Eh, think of it in this context. All the other ones made things worse. It might be a 'back to the drawing board' sort of thing having seen what orks, eldar, slavers, and all the other ones have done so far...