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Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




Canada

this post is just for your different ideas of how you might want a 5th edition nid hero to be like or if you think they shouldn't even exist.

IMO there should be nid heroes because you never know what kind of mutations might evolve in the innumerable horde of the nids. or maybe a set of mutations able to attach to several different species like biomorphs that make them more hero like and are only allowed to be applied to one single creature.
   
Made in ca
Huge Hierodule






Outflanking

No 'Nid Heroes. Period. The Biomorph system is all we will ever need. No Tofu characters.

Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?

A: A Maniraptor 
   
Made in ca
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God





Inactive


Aww i really liked the ideas of "mutated monstrosities"

like... Old One Eye

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Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




Canada

I dont know Crazy_Carnifex I think that heroes add new dimensions to army by adding special rules that change and affect the game like in the new guard codex knight commander pask adding a greater killing capability to guard leman russ' nids missed out on that kind of thing in the last codex with the removal of old one eye and the red terror I think they should be reintroduced but this thread is more talking about how to go about making those characters
   
Made in eg
[MOD]
Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt

I would kill several small animals if meant we could have a Genesteal cult character who unlocked some culty units.

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Well I don't like the idea of 'Named' Tyranids - that's just silly for a race that basically kills its own army and turns it back into genetic goop at the end of every war. However, I do like the idea of a 'Build A Better Bug' system where you can make a unique mutation. The Tyranids are a race that constantly evolve, and if they run into an obstacle on any given world, they'll make something to get past that obstacle. Sometimes these changes are subtle such as different types of Spore Mines (over the single type that Hive Fleet Kraken had), and sometimes they are far more dramatic (Bio-Titans as a direct response to Imperial Titans and Ork Gargants).

The Tyranids should have various 'standard' creatures, but they should also have 'one-offs' that appear, at first, on one world, but begin to appear throughout the Hive Fleet if they prove successful. The Red Terror is a good example of this. It was there because there Delvian (I think that was the planet) was cris-crossed with mining shafts as it was a vast mining world. The Red Terror made sense in that it was perfectly adapted to the terrain the Tyranids were fighting over. Chances are that, during that war, there was more than one Red Terror, and any traits or specific abilities of the Red Terror that were successful would be taken and put into other units (ie. the unit is 'saved' for the next time it's useful). If the Hive Fleet then came across another mining world or a place with deep underground complexes, it can break out the old design and start creating more Red Terrors to use them in their preferred environment, maybe with subtle differences depending upon the exact type of tunnels it has to get through.

In my original Tyranids Codex for the Warhammer 40,000 Revisited Project I had a section of rules for 'Tyranid Monstrosities' that were there to make up your own 'special' one-off Tyranid beasties, and I came up with a few examples using those rules:

Thandros Slayer - Only exists in the recorded archives from Thandros, but it was a highly psychic creature encountered (so far) only on Thandros, something like a super-Hive Tyrant, made to fight against and resist the Telepathica Matrix found on Thandros.

Icharian Spectre - A smaller specialised Lictor that the Tyranids created specifically for the close street and hive fighting, it would emerge from behind a tank or infantry column, cut through half a dozen of them, and then vanish back into the shadows before anyone could kill it.

I think the idea's a good 'un, as long as we don't get "If you take X Monstrosity, Y unit counts as Troops" and no actual 'named' characters either.

   
Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




Canada

i like that kind of idea it could be as simple as just an upgrade that you can use on one creature and make it into a better variant, or you can choose from this set of things to add on, that would be satisfying because it would add a hero like quality to the creatures in the nid army. But I do beleive there should be a "hero" type unit in the tyranid army the norn queen or one of the dominant creatures never before seen but referenced in the codex.
   
Made in us
Doc Brown






I actually heard a few leaked things about nids... They already have a playtest made it seems and you upgrade the brood as points, not singlely. Also, spike rifles are gonna make a return.

As for Special Characters, I doubt it... Oh and hormagaunts will finally be worth their points it seems.

"From the fires of Betrayal unto the blood of revenge we bring the name of Lorgar, the Bearer of the Word, the favored Son of Chaos, all praise be given to him. From those that would not heed we offer praise to those who do, that they might turn their gaze our way and gift us with the Boon of Pain, to turn the Galaxy red with the blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods."

-Excerpt from the Three Hundred and Forty-First

Book of Epistles of Lorgar

Cheese Elemental wrote:That made me think... what's a good pick-up line in the Imperium?

"Hey baby, my plasma cannon's running hot and I need to purge you in the name of the Emperor tonight."
 
   
Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




Canada

I thought they were putting off nids for armies who need it more like dark eldar, and some of the marine variants?
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

The problem with Nid special characters isn't that SCs are less likely in a hive mind, it's just that the suspension of disbelief is harder to maintain. Look at Eldrad: are we really supposed to belief it's actually him in every game? If no, why not allow the archtype to proliferate? Is there any really good reason not to allow Eldar to have two "Master Psykers?" The only real justfication is usually that the special characters, above his own abilities and wargear and stats, also holds a unique office or relic, that cannot be duplicated. So, While there are other librarians as powerful as Tigerius (or nearly so), the actually regalia and secrects and office of Chief allows him three powers a turn. Ditto nearly all other SCs, but even then there are questions. Why can there only be one Sly marbo or Nork Dedogg?

With nids, there needs to be some reason, other than simply game balance, to justify having unique models. You can maybe try explaining that certain types require more control from the Hive Tyrant, or for Tyrant Variations say that a standard Tyrant is required to control the army, the Special Operates on it's own.

Some ideas:

Death Dropper: A winged hive tyrant that has heroic Intervention and all HtH biomorphs.

Skipper-Crab: An elite Carnifex that has fleet, A 4+ Save, and some sort of neat gun.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




Canada

Yes but both of those are very common creatures what about some of the more neglected beasts in the nid codex. For example a biovore that has a special mine and maybe multiple shots? or maybe a super sized ripper that leads smaller rippers, one that has perhaps been bread from something like the catachan devil.

Some other reasons for the one limit in the army is the time it takes to bio engineer these things, or it could be the volitility of the genes because of genetic breakdown?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/25 04:26:29


 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





South Carolina

I would like to see the return of "Old One-Eye" and "The Red Terror" just to give the nids some variety for the swarm of x, another swarm of x or y. I think they can be represented in the fluff like H.B.M.C.'s examples. Im not sure what, or how they would be implemented. Maybe a single fex may be upgraded to the "old one-eye" for x points? The "old one-eye" has special rules but is not an army wide game changer or a required unit.

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sence, we couldn't react to a lot of life." - Calvin and Hobbes

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Made in ca
Lurking Gaunt




Canada

So anyone have any ideas on what super bugs/heroes they might want to see in the new codex when it comes out?
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Polonius wrote:The problem with Nid special characters isn't that SCs are less likely in a hive mind, it's just that the suspension of disbelief is harder to maintain. Look at Eldrad: are we really supposed to belief it's actually him in every game? If no, why not allow the archtype to proliferate? Is there any really good reason not to allow Eldar to have two "Master Psykers?" The only real justfication is usually that the special characters, above his own abilities and wargear and stats, also holds a unique office or relic, that cannot be duplicated. So, While there are other librarians as powerful as Tigerius (or nearly so), the actually regalia and secrects and office of Chief allows him three powers a turn. Ditto nearly all other SCs, but even then there are questions. Why can there only be one Sly marbo or Nork Dedogg?

With nids, there needs to be some reason, other than simply game balance, to justify having unique models.


I'd say it is the complete 100% opposite of that. If anything it is easier to justify multiple 'unique' creatures showing up, because the Hive Mind is constantly evolving and using whatever it can to gain an edge. You have to come up with a dozen different justifications why your Salamanders are led by Not-Tigurius, Chief Librarian of the Not-Ultramarines, but two Tyranid swarms both having a 'Red Terror'? That's easy! The Red Terror is simply a very rare creature that shows up in the odd army where the Hive Mind deems it necessary - it's not a unique unit.

   
Made in us
Hungry Little Ripper





I would think a Tyranid swarm wouldn't so much have a unique hero character, but more of a specifically oriented character. Like a Broodlord is an independent character, but he is typically ran with a brood of Genestealers. What I'm trying to say is Tyranids shouldn't have "heroes", but instead have characters which are specifically designed to serve a need for the greater good of the Hive Mind. Maybe have a character that aids gaunts exclusively, or have them oriented to one or two terrain types. Just a theory, and everything must start with a theory.

Hive Fleet Nebulos- 1300pts
 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Polonius wrote:The problem with Nid special characters isn't that SCs are less likely in a hive mind, it's just that the suspension of disbelief is harder to maintain. Look at Eldrad: are we really supposed to belief it's actually him in every game? If no, why not allow the archtype to proliferate? Is there any really good reason not to allow Eldar to have two "Master Psykers?" The only real justfication is usually that the special characters, above his own abilities and wargear and stats, also holds a unique office or relic, that cannot be duplicated. So, While there are other librarians as powerful as Tigerius (or nearly so), the actually regalia and secrects and office of Chief allows him three powers a turn. Ditto nearly all other SCs, but even then there are questions. Why can there only be one Sly marbo or Nork Dedogg?

With nids, there needs to be some reason, other than simply game balance, to justify having unique models.


I'd say it is the complete 100% opposite of that. If anything it is easier to justify multiple 'unique' creatures showing up, because the Hive Mind is constantly evolving and using whatever it can to gain an edge. You have to come up with a dozen different justifications why your Salamanders are led by Not-Tigurius, Chief Librarian of the Not-Ultramarines, but two Tyranid swarms both having a 'Red Terror'? That's easy! The Red Terror is simply a very rare creature that shows up in the odd army where the Hive Mind deems it necessary - it's not a unique unit.


That's my whole point! There is no reason for anything in the Nid list to be a 0-1, unique choice. It's mildly silly with other stuff, it's preposterous with the Nids. If the hive mind needs two Red Terrors in a formation, why not simply include two?

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Greenville, South Cacky-Lacky

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I would kill several small animals if meant we could have a Genesteal cult character who unlocked some culty units.


I'm with ya, Kid Kyoto. My Genestealer Cult is tired of being locked in its dusty box and wants to PLAY!

Alles klar, eh, Kommissar? 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




United States (Delaware)

Polonius wrote:The problem with Nid special characters isn't that SCs are less likely in a hive mind, it's just that the suspension of disbelief is harder to maintain. Look at Eldrad: are we really supposed to belief it's actually him in every game? If no, why not allow the archtype to proliferate? Is there any really good reason not to allow Eldar to have two "Master Psykers?" The only real justfication is usually that the special characters, above his own abilities and wargear and stats, also holds a unique office or relic, that cannot be duplicated. So, While there are other librarians as powerful as Tigerius (or nearly so), the actually regalia and secrects and office of Chief allows him three powers a turn. Ditto nearly all other SCs, but even then there are questions. Why can there only be one Sly marbo or Nork Dedogg?

With nids, there needs to be some reason, other than simply game balance, to justify having unique models. You can maybe try explaining that certain types require more control from the Hive Tyrant, or for Tyrant Variations say that a standard Tyrant is required to control the army, the Special Operates on it's own.

Some ideas:

Death Dropper: A winged hive tyrant that has heroic Intervention and all HtH biomorphs.

Skipper-Crab: An elite Carnifex that has fleet, A 4+ Save, and some sort of neat gun.


The reason we can't have multiple Sly Marbo's or Nork Dedoggs, is despite them not having anything fancy that can't be replicated, fluff wise they are unique characters and their history is what makes them "special".

I think Nids could have special characters simply because there always has to be that first "test subject". For example, Old One Eye was at one time, the only beasty with regeneration. He was the test subject to see how well it would work. Now he's no more and carnifex's can pick up regeneration due to the Hive Mind deeming it a success. So the next codex could have something else that unique because it's still in its "testing phase" for the hive mind.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nothing in the swarm should have a 0-1 option in standard games. (my opinion)
The large nodal type creatures should be limited to Apocalypse/narrative play.
Old One Eye still exists in the new codex. It just needs to be build out of the Carnifex options.
The Red Terror should just be a Fast Attack (or maybe a Heavy Support) option, with no limitations.
Just a brood of 1.
It's a big Ravener / small Trygon.
The Tyranid players should just get at least one new body type to morph new creations off of (greater ravener?)
It have the role of a fast 'fex'.
Red Terror plus Crushing Claws would be kinda sexy. In a giant monster worm sort of way....

- - - -

I'd like to have a use for my hybrids in a tournament setting, but would prefer to see them done separately from the Tyranid codex.
Seeing that they would only share one unit in common.
Maybe in a traitors and cults dex, or something in that vein.
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




United States (Delaware)

Belphegor wrote:Nothing in the swarm should have a 0-1 option in standard games. (my opinion)
The large nodal type creatures should be limited to Apocalypse/narrative play.
Old One Eye still exists in the new codex. It just needs to be build out of the Carnifex options.
The Red Terror should just be a Fast Attack (or maybe a Heavy Support) option, with no limitations.
Just a brood of 1.
It's a big Ravener / small Trygon.
The Tyranid players should just get at least one new body type to morph new creations off of (greater ravener?)
It have the role of a fast 'fex'.
Red Terror plus Crushing Claws would be kinda sexy. In a giant monster worm sort of way....


Old One Eye does not exist in the new codex and was vastly superior to what you can make out of a carnifex now.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ChaoticFlanagan: Old One Eye does not exist in the new codex and was vastly superior to what you can make out of a carnifex now.
So you can't make a regenerating Clawed/Scything carnifex with more wounds and higher Toughness in the new codex?
From what I remember, the use of the regenerating ability and claws was what made Old One Eye special as compared to the the 3rd ed carnifex.
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




United States (Delaware)

The regeneration on Old One Eye was a lot better, something along the lines of regenerating 1 would on a 4+ opposed to a 6. Also, he could stand up with more wounds after he died, depending on which you rolled.

Finally, he was a whole lot points cheaper lol.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Perhaps it was a balance issue, rather than an issue of removing it from the fluff?
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt




United States (Delaware)

Possibly, it's a tough call. Old One Eye was strictly melee and there was no "run" move at the time. If we were to apply his regen to a boomfex or shottyfex now, it'd be brutal for the enemy. However, they could have just raised the price of regeneration....despite it being to expensive now, for a crappy skill.

 
   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Akron, Ohio

I'dlike to see some Special Issue type bio-morphs and a cult leader character who allowed you to ally in some IG units.

DR:90S+G++MB+I+Pw40k07++D++A++/eWD-R+++T(Ot)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Arizona

Normally I don't like the "wishful thinking" threads.


However I feel rather strongly we shouldn't have "heroes" in the conventional sense.


If we (bugs) had a similar thought as to If we take X then we may get Y as Z

Winged Tyrant = 1 squad of gargs or wing warrs as troops.
Warrior HQ with no ranged weapons = all warrs in the list get fleet and 1 unit of warrs may be taken as troops
Warrior HQ with Scytals + 1 gun = all warrs in the list get BS 3 base and 1 unit of warrs may be taken as troops
Gun-equipped Tyrant with 2 or more guard = some other bonus, maybe a buyable +T upgrade for one troop choice per tyrant built this way
Tyrant with Psychic Scream = some bonus/pentaly to ally/enemy leadership, stubborn, something else LD oriented
Broodlord = Does fine already, gets infiltrating genies, can get pref enemy

We don't need heroes, but we could certainly use HQs with army-wide effects.


Edit: The biomorph system is AWESOME. No other army can customize units as specifically as we can. Chaos Marines can do it a bit using marks, but that only goes so far. We can selectively choose to upgrade a given stat or multiple stats and it's a wonderful resource. I really hope we get to keep that when the new codex comes because I do fear losing it as the 5th ed codecies seem to be following the same setup each time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/27 14:06:00


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