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Hi

If a blast template is placed on a vehicle is it placed on the center of the model, the closest side to the shooter or placed anywhere on the hull. For example if I shoot a Frag Missile at a tank (I know it won't do anything to the vehicle) with it's front armour facing the model that shot it, do I place it on the side facing the model, over the center and scatter or can I place it so that it effects the rear armour? Thanks in advance.

1) determine if your target is inside the maximum range of the weapon. You do this by measuring closest point to closest point vehicle -> firer

2) place your blast marker and determine if this is STILL inside the max range. - you can place it on the point you measured or take a risk and place it further away.

At no point are you constrained by placing it on a specific part, the only risk is whether it is then placed beyond range. The only requirement is that the centre hole MUST be on the model.

As for armour facings - by default, assuming direct fire, the armour is the facing as worked out from the firer. If the hole scatters off the vehicle, but the blast still touches it, then armour is from the direction of the hole (just at reduced strength)

Indirect fire is different - for example barrage goes by side armour as defualt if memory serves.

Usually center of the model but the armor value is the side that the shot came from. If the shooter is in front it would be front armor same with side and rear

Thank you both for your help I just needed to know what armour value to use.

You can place the blast marker with the center hole anywhere on the main body of the vehicle. However, the only way it can affect the rear armor (assuming the rear is not the side facing you) is for the blast marker to be Barrage and to scatter so that the center hole is behind the vehicle with a portion of the blast marker hitting the rear of the vehicle. Course, weapon strength is halved since the center hole is not on the vehicle.

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) determine if your target is inside the maximum range of the weapon. You do this by measuring closest point to closest point vehicle -> firer

2) place your blast marker and determine if this is STILL inside the max range. - you can place it on the point you measured or take a risk and place it further away.

At no point are you constrained by placing it on a specific part, the only risk is whether it is then placed beyond range. The only requirement is that the centre hole MUST be on the model.

If you play like that, you're wrong. You always place the template where you want it to go and then measure the distance to the blast template. That's it. No double measuring.

As for armour facings - by default, assuming direct fire, the armour is the facing as worked out from the firer. If the hole scatters off the vehicle, but the blast still touches it, then armour is from the direction of the hole (just at reduced strength)

Indirect fire is different - for example barrage goes by side armour as defualt if memory serves.

Direct firing blast templates takes the armor value facing in a straight line from the firing model to the vehicle. Even partials.

AffliKtion wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) determine if your target is inside the maximum range of the weapon. You do this by measuring closest point to closest point vehicle -> firer

2) place your blast marker and determine if this is STILL inside the max range. - you can place it on the point you measured or take a risk and place it further away.

At no point are you constrained by placing it on a specific part, the only risk is whether it is then placed beyond range. The only requirement is that the centre hole MUST be on the model.

If you play like that, you're wrong. You always place the template where you want it to go and then measure the distance to the blast template. That's it. No double measuring.

He has it exactly correct actually, you have it wrong. Blast rules are in place of the "roll to hit" step in the firing sequence. Read the first sentence of blast, it tells you when to start using the rules specific for blast and when to stop.

[quote=AffliKtion
If you play like that, you're wrong. You always place the template where you want it to go and then measure the distance to the blast template. That's it. No double measuring.

Blast Replaces Step 3

Measure Range is Step 2

You have to measure twice.

Simple, innit?

Just so everyone is clear on this subject, the idea of measuring twice *does* have support in the rules. As it seems you can follow the shooting process and then follow the blast process which would lead a player to measure twice.

With that said, it is *also* read that the blast template rules replace the normal shooting process altogether, and so only 1 measurement is ever taken.

EDIT: Case in point are flamer (type) template weapons. The rules for them uses the *exact* same line as the blast rule, the "Instead of rolling to hit" part. Which would indicate that you would still need to measure the weapon first, and in cases where you have only flamer weapons in a unit (lone model or burna boys for example), how exactly do you measure for a flamer template in step 2? The point is, the camp that believes in replacement believe that the template rules simply replace the normal shooting process just like the blast rules do.

Both sides do have RB support. So basically the jury is still out on this one.

But please, let us refrain from calling someone "wrong" when in fact the *truth* is, no one knows the intent of how blast weapons were supposed to interact with the normal shooting process. This is still a sensitive subject to some people (this is shown by people taking a hard-lined side of one or the other).

I'll have to read the rule-book again myself, but the way we play it locally is:

1) Place the template anywhere over the vehicle so long as the hole is 100% over the vehicle.

2) Measure the distance from the point of the weapon firing to the hole of the template. If the hole is out of range your shot fails.

3) If not a barrage weapon, the any hit or scatters touching the vehicle count against the facing that the firing vehicle is in, even if the hole is behind the vehicle, the firer would have to be behind the vehicle to get the rear shot.

Not sure if this meshes with the rules, but thats how we currently play.

Kaaihn wrote:

AffliKtion wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) determine if your target is inside the maximum range of the weapon. You do this by measuring closest point to closest point vehicle -> firer

2) place your blast marker and determine if this is STILL inside the max range. - you can place it on the point you measured or take a risk and place it further away.

At no point are you constrained by placing it on a specific part, the only risk is whether it is then placed beyond range. The only requirement is that the centre hole MUST be on the model.

If you play like that, you're wrong. You always place the template where you want it to go and then measure the distance to the blast template. That's it. No double measuring.

He has it exactly correct actually, you have it wrong. Blast rules are in place of the "roll to hit" step in the firing sequence. Read the first sentence of blast, it tells you when to start using the rules specific for blast and when to stop.

Measuring like this gives you an incredibly easy way to pre-measure before placing your template. I take the measuring of blast templates precedent for measuring when using blast templates.

Affliktion, so what? Thems the rules. YoU measure in step 2, then you place the marker in Step 3. Just because you don;t like it doesn't make it wrong.

By getting annoyed when a player plays by the rules, you are the one cheating tbh

Because I'm so annoyed right?

Unless ... as has already been pointed out ... the blast rules completely replace the firing rules.

The wording of the blast rules is very similar to the template rules ... as has also already been pointed out ...


There are most definitely two schools of thought on which interpretation is correct. One school reads the line in the blast rules about the models not rolling to hit to mean that the rules start to replace the shooting sequence at step 3. The other believes that the same line replaces steps 1+3, and then goes on to replace step 2 in the next paragraph.


Saying someone is cheating because they belong to the other school of thought is perhaps not contributing usefully to the discussion.



Sliggoth

I honestly had no idea that there was an ongoing discussion for this. I have never ran into this problem until this thread, so I apologize if anyone was offended by me saying he was wrong, but it's Dakka and most of us have thicker skin than that anyway.

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Blast Replaces Step 3

Measure Range is Step 2

You have to measure twice.

Simple, innit?

Actually placing the Blast Marker is a part of Step 1. It goes from "Check line of sight & pick a target" to "Check line of sight and place Blast Marker over target". Step 3 is totally replaced with the scatter.

don_mondo wrote:You can place the blast marker with the center hole anywhere on the main body of the vehicle. However, the only way it can affect the rear armor (assuming the rear is not the side facing you) is for the blast marker to be Barrage and to scatter so that the center hole is behind the vehicle with a portion of the blast marker hitting the rear of the vehicle. Course, weapon strength is halved since the center hole is not on the vehicle.

Not quite right. Any blast that scatters such that the center hole is not over the vehicle but part of the template is will apply the hit at half strength to the facing that the template it is in, not just barrage weapons. It's been that way since 4th ed.

You are correct, it's any blast marker. My bad

Why can't you mesure range for a template weapon? This is actualy reqired for an Inferno cannon, which doesn't have to be placed adjacent to the weapon.

For a flamer, your range is "Template" So you place the template adjacent to you model to see if anyone's in range, then follow the rules as listed in the BGB, which is place the template again, then work out wounds. Redundent? yes, impossable? no.

The entire argument around whether blast rules are additional rules (as stated on page 29) that take the place of the roll to hit step (read first line of blast rules) versus the argument they are entirely self contained (they aren't) isn't something that will often matter anyway.

The only time this issue matters is if you have a unit with no weapon besides a blast weapon. If there is a single model with a non blast weapon in a unit, you make that closest to closest range check no matter what for the non blast firing model. When do you resolve the blast hits versus the normal firing model(s)? Yes, that would be during step three, rolling to hit, as all hits are resolved in the same step, then moving on to rolling to wound.