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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Would be on top of income tax

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/26/AR2009052602909_pf.html

Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look
Levy Viewed as Way to Reduce Deficits, Fund Health Reform

By Lori Montgomery
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 27, 2009



With budget deficits soaring and President Obama pushing a trillion-dollar-plus expansion of health coverage, some Washington policymakers are taking a fresh look at a money-making idea long considered politically taboo: a national sales tax.

Common around the world, including in Europe, such a tax -- called a value-added tax, or VAT -- has not been seriously considered in the United States. But advocates say few other options can generate the kind of money the nation will need to avert fiscal calamity.

At a White House conference earlier this year on the government's budget problems, a roomful of tax experts pleaded with Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner to consider a VAT. A recent flurry of books and papers on the subject is attracting genuine, if furtive, interest in Congress. And last month, after wrestling with the White House over the massive deficits projected under Obama's policies, the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee declared that a VAT should be part of the debate.

"There is a growing awareness of the need for fundamental tax reform," Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) said in an interview. "I think a VAT and a high-end income tax have got to be on the table."

A VAT is a tax on the transfer of goods and services that ultimately is borne by the consumer. Highly visible, it would increase the cost of just about everything, from a carton of eggs to a visit with a lawyer. It is also hugely regressive, falling heavily on the poor. But VAT advocates say those negatives could be offset by using the proceeds to pay for health care for every American -- a tangible benefit that would be highly valuable to low-income families.

Liberals dispute that notion. "You could pay for it regressively and have people at the bottom come out better off -- maybe. Or you could pay for it progressively and they'd come out a lot better off," said Bob McIntyre, director of the nonprofit Citizens for Tax Justice, which has a health financing plan that targets corporations and the rich.

A White House official said a VAT is "unlikely to be in the mix" as a means to pay for health-care reform. "While we do not want to rule any credible idea in or out as we discuss the way forward with Congress, the VAT tax, in particular, is popular with academics but highly controversial with policymakers," said Kenneth Baer, a spokesman for White House Budget Director Peter Orszag.

Still, Orszag has hired a prominent VAT advocate to advise him on health care: Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel and author of the 2008 book "Health Care, Guaranteed." Meanwhile, former Federal Reserve chairman Paul A. Volcker, chairman of a task force Obama assigned to study the tax system, has expressed at least tentative support for a VAT.

"Everybody who understands our long-term budget problems understands we're going to need a new source of revenue, and a VAT is an obvious candidate," said Leonard Burman, co-director of the Tax Policy Center, a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, who testified on Capitol Hill this month about his own VAT plan. "It's common to the rest of the world, and we don't have it."

Seeking New Revenue

The surge of interest in a VAT is testament to the extraordinary depth of the nation's money troubles. While some conservatives have long argued that a consumption tax would provide a simpler and more efficient alternative to the byzantine U.S. income tax code, this time it's all about the money.

The federal budget deficit is projected to approach $1.3 trillion next year, the highest ever except for this year, when the deficit is forecast to exceed $1.8 trillion. The Treasury is borrowing 46 cents of every dollar it spends, largely from China and other foreign creditors, who are growing increasingly uneasy about the security of their investments. Unless Congress comes up with some serious cash, expanding the nation's health-care system will only add to the problem.

Obama wants to raise income taxes for high earners and impose new levies on business, but those moves would not generate enough cash to cover the cost of health care, much less balance the budget, and they have not been fully embraced by Congress. Obama's plan to tax greenhouse-gas emissions could raise trillions of dollars, but again, Congress is balking.

Key lawmakers are considering other ways to pay for health reform, including new taxes on sugary soda, alcohol and employer-provided health insurance. The last proposal could raise a lot of money -- nearly $1 trillion over the next five years, according to White House budget documents. But options on the table would raise a fraction of that sum. And while it might pay for health care, it would barely dent deficits projected to total nearly $4 trillion over the next five years and to grow rapidly in the future, as baby boomers draw on Social Security and Medicare.

Enter the VAT, one of the world's most popular taxes, in use in more than 130 countries. Among industrialized nations, rates range from 5 percent in Japan to 25 percent in Hungary and in parts of Scandinavia. A 21 percent VAT has permitted Ireland to attract investment by lowering its corporate tax rate.

The VAT has advantages: Because producers, wholesalers and retailers are each required to record their transactions and pay a portion of the VAT, the tax is hard to dodge. It punishes spending rather than savings, which the administration hopes to encourage. And the threat of a VAT could pull the country out of recession, some economists argue, by hurrying consumers to the mall before the tax hits.

A VAT's Bottom Line

What would it cost? Emanuel argues in his book that a 10 percent VAT would pay for every American not entitled to Medicare or Medicaid to enroll in a health plan with no deductibles and minimal copayments. In his 2008 book, "100 Million Unnecessary Returns," Yale law professor Michael J. Graetz estimates that a VAT of 10 to 14 percent would raise enough money to exempt families earning less than $100,000 -- about 90 percent of households -- from the income tax and would lower rates for everyone else.

And in a paper published last month in the Virginia Tax Review, Burman suggests that a 25 percent VAT could do it all: Pay for health-care reform, balance the federal budget and exempt millions of families from the income tax while slashing the top rate to 25 percent. A gallon of milk would jump from $3.69 to $4.61, and a $5,000 bathroom renovation would suddenly cost $6,250, but the nation's debt would stabilize and everybody could see a doctor.

Sales Tax Gains Momentum

Burman, who helped House Democrats craft an unsuccessful 2007 plan to repeal the alternative minimum tax, said he's received a number of phone calls from lawmakers interested in his idea, though "they can't quite imagine how to make it happen politically." Burman said the 25 percent rate has caused some sticker shock, and he's trying to figure out how to bring it down.

Graetz's proposal drew an endorsement from Volcker, who last year called it "a sensible plan for reform." (Volcker did not respond to a request for comment.) It also has piqued the interest of Conrad, the Senate Budget Committee chairman who argues that it could be modified to accommodate Obama's pledge not to raise taxes on families who make less than $200,000 a year.

"I think interest is quietly picking up," Graetz said. "People are beginning to recognize that the mathematics of the current system are just unsustainable. You have to do something. And a VAT has got to be on the table if you want to do something big and serious."

Still, the Senate Finance Committee declined to include a VAT among the options it is considering to pay for health reform. And even VAT supporters doubt the tax will find a place among the tax-reform proposals the Volcker panel has been asked to produce by Dec. 4.

Though the nation's fiscal outlook is grim, Burman said "the situation will have to get more desperate" before lawmakers are likely to consider a new levy aimed directly at the pocketbooks of every one of their constituents.

Most lawmakers are still looking for "a painless source of revenue" to overhaul the health-care system and dig the nation out of debt, Burman said. "Who knows?" he added. "Maybe the tooth fairy will bring that to them."


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





Money has to come from somewhere, This will get shot down just like all the bills in Cali got shot down. Them people will moan about how everything isn't getting fixed.


And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.

Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole 
   
Made in us
Wrack Sufferer





Bat Country

I don't like the idea of a V.A.T. but I do like the idea of the Fair Tax. But either way, it will never happen.

Once upon a time, I told myself it's better to be smart than lucky. Every day, the world proves me wrong a little more. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I'm trying to reconcile this with that whole "no taxes on 95% of Americans" mantra.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Indiana

Frazzled wrote:I'm trying to reconcile this with that whole "no taxes on 95% of Americans" mantra.


95% of american's won't realize it tax.

DT:80+S+G+M-B--IPw40k08+D++A++/hwd348R++T(T)DM+
http://youngpride.wordpress.com

 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander




The home of the Alamo, TX

Legalize Marijuana and put a reasonable tax on it so people don't grow their own. This will also cut back on a lot of prison space and a lot of money in the black market will find its way towards funding national programs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/27 18:39:02




 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Indiana

Legalize weed and prostitution and we'll be the richest bastards on earth. Oh wait... already there. Muahahahaha (evil overlord laugh)

DT:80+S+G+M-B--IPw40k08+D++A++/hwd348R++T(T)DM+
http://youngpride.wordpress.com

 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

I'm not a big fan of regressive taxes.

Also, how exactly would this cause more people to save money? Everything would still be more expensive when the saved money is actually used, right?

What would be the benefit?

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm not a big fan of regressive taxes.

Also, how exactly would this cause more people to save money? Everything would still be more expensive when the saved money is actually used, right?

What would be the benefit?


Thats correct. The libertarian in me says pay as you go. The realist in me says the libertarian is full of it and this will result in hiked taxes for everyone except those with incomes in the US$200+ range. The realist also says this is an excellent way to reduce our trade deficit as people will buy less (of everything).

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

I've heard two countermanding proposals with respect to revenue generation in the US. The first is a VAT similar to the UK's, which I believe does not apply to foodstuffs. The second is a removal, or significant increase, to the ceiling of FICA.

I'm guessing both will pass as part of combined bill, so both sides of the class war can feel equally impinged.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

You think they're going to mess with the third rail of US politics. No way Jose!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

They already did. Or did you forget the bank bailouts, vilification of wall street, and threats of prosecution for CEO bonuses?

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

None of that messes with SS-the great politician killer.

'We need to reform social security.'

"Great."

'To do that we need to raise the retirement age.'

"Great, can you give the keys to your office to the politician who just replaced you as you are escorted out the building? Thanks."




-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

dogma wrote:...The first is a VAT similar to the UK's, which I believe does not apply to foodstuffs...

Yep, +15% on all goods and services except food (with exceptions), books and children's clothes.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I think Canada actually charges a VAT on food, or at least restaurant bills.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Don't a lot of states already have some kind of sales tax?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

This would be in addition to that.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Double bummer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The administration of VAT is complex and allows for certain types of accounting frauds to be done. They have been cracking down on it. At one stage, the so-called Carousel Fraud was netting criminals 100s of millions per year.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 13:31:03


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





The USA

So the Gov needs to come up with a bit of money huh? I gots an idea for em, instead of spend spend spend with a dash of spend on top of more spend and a great big glass of spend... STOP FLUSHING TAX MONEY DOWN THE DRAIN.

It’s sad... money is tight for me now, so I cut back on warhammer and other fun but not necessary spending and am getting by just fine.

But if I thought like a gov libtard I would increase spending 10 fold in every aspect of my life and wonder where all my money is going and then try and tax the bugs in the yard...



and you thought Bush was bad... hold on to your wallets people.
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Frazzled wrote:I'm trying to reconcile this with that whole "no taxes on 95% of Americans" mantra.


Congressmen unrelated to Obama campaign suggests tax should be considered. Budget officer in Obama campaign says tax won't be considered, in line with Obama tax promise.

Exactly how long did you spend trying to reconcile the two, because to be honest with you it didn't take me that long to figure it out.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Who do you think told them to float the idea Sebster? Its called a trial balloon. Obama is the head of the Democratic party.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Frazzled wrote:Who do you think told them to float the idea Sebster? Its called a trial balloon. Obama is the head of the Democratic party.


And therefore every idea passed through thinktanks and random congressmen is an Obama proposal? Because the Democrats need to throw new taxes out into the media to see if the public might like the idea (here's a hint - they won't).

It's a really, really long bow you're drawing here fraz.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Major






far away from Battle Creek, Michigan

If additional taxes mean greater access to healthcare and education then Raising taxes to pay for wars and bailouts is so boring.

PROSECUTOR: By now, there have been 34 casualties.

Elena Ceausescu says: Look, and that they are calling genocide.

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Not random Congressman, and it wasn't a think tank. It was a trial balloon.

If additional taxes mean greater access to healthcare and education then Raising taxes to pay for wars and bailouts is so boring.

It won't. On the positive I have faith the bond vigilantes will insure the Budget is righted properly over time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 18:46:32


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Frazzled wrote:None of that messes with SS-the great politician killer.

'We need to reform social security.'

"Great."

'To do that we need to raise the retirement age.'

"Great, can you give the keys to your office to the politician who just replaced you as you are escorted out the building? Thanks."


That tune will change significantly as the boomers start retiring in greater numbers. Either way, increasing the cap on taxable income for FICA isn't the same as limiting social security, or raising the retirement age. Its a tax increase, that's it.

Frazzled wrote:Not random Congressman, and it wasn't a think tank. It was a trial balloon.



It was a random congressman. A Democrat from ND is hardly a high influence player.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/28 18:48:27


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Frazzled wrote:Not random Congressman, and it wasn't a think tank. It was a trial balloon.

If additional taxes mean greater access to healthcare and education then Raising taxes to pay for wars and bailouts is so boring.

It won't. On the positive I have faith the bond vigilantes will insure the Budget is righted properly over time.


No, he was a random congressman. And when you throw an idea out into the public forum, you don't follow it up with a carefully worded statement from the admin saying 'this is not on the table'.

If you want to complain about Obama, and by all means please do. Its just that I would assume there are plenty of better issues out there than some random Democrat suggesting a tax policy that would be in opposition to Obama's election promise, except there is no support for the tax increase coming from within the Obama administration.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Envy89 wrote:and you thought Bush was bad... hold on to your wallets people.

Obama will make that illegal.

   
 
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