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I was playing a game today against a deathwing army and many of his terminators had Storm Shields, he claimed it gives them a 3+ invulnerable save even against shooting like it says in the Space Marine codex, but now that I look at it the Dark Angels equipment entry says that storm shields only give a 4+ invulnerable save in combat? I'm assuming that you're supposed to use the equipment entries of the one codex that you're using so surely they'd have the dark angels storm shields instead of the space marine ones that give a 3+ invulnerable save.

Yes to Belial making Terminators Troops.

No to Dark Angels having 3+ Storm Shields (your buddy needs to read his Codex and the DA FAQ).

Thank you, I was getting worrried that his army might be even more imbalanced than mine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh one more question, is it true that space marine storm shields give you a 3+ invulnerable save? :S

Lol. Have you even seen the DA codex.

Yush but I can be a little blind sometimes

Its just that the DA codex isn't that powerfull....at all.

Oh, and yes, Storm Shields on regular SM Terminators grant you a 3+ invulnerable save both against shooting and CC.

Zoot wrote:Yush but I can be a little blind sometimes

It's an easy mistake to make. Logically, two items called "Storm Shield", in a game that has rules would be expected to follow the same rules. But GW doesn't follow rules, or logic for that matter, so your Storm Shield is different to my Storm Shield. For no apparent reason.

Welcome to the GW Hobby.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Zoot wrote:Yush but I can be a little blind sometimes

It's an easy mistake to make. Logically, two items called "Storm Shield", in a game that has rules would be expected to follow the same rules. But GW doesn't follow rules, or logic for that matter, so your Storm Shield is different to my Storm Shield. For no apparent reason.

Welcome to the GW Hobby.

QFT


//Edge

Except they do have rules: codex specific items use that codex for rules.

They tried unified wargear, through the wargear book. every new codex invalidated it, and you ended up in a mess now kniwing whether your codex, the wargear book or any new codex was the correct one to use.

They are very consistent: Codex specific means use those rules, e.g. smoke launchers for DH downgrading to a glance not a 4+ cover save. You cant have it both ways - THAT is the confusing way. It also means you only need YOUR codex and any specifically mentioned in order to play YOUR army - not codex + SM codex for stormshields etc.

So far the only storm shields that do provide a 3+ save are for basic marines, poor DA, BA and pups get a 4+ instead.

JD21290 wrote:So far the only storm shields that do provide a 3+ save are for basic marines, poor DA, BA and pups get a 4+ instead.

Wrong... Space Pups get the 3++, because their Codex refers you back to C:SM.

JD21290 wrote:So far the only storm shields that do provide a 3+ save are for basic marines, poor DA, BA and pups get a 4+ instead.

and grey knights gettign that nice 4+ as well. :(

Yeah exactly, it refers to the Marine dex, so it is more of a fluke than on purpose.
It was the same for BA/DA in their old codices.

Well the Wolfs get a new dex soon so we'll see then what rules Storm Shield will have.


//Edge

Just write "ACME" on all your DA storm shields.

I bet the wolves will get a 3+ Against Shooting and nothing in CC, just to mix things up a bit

Jervis like Wolves. They'll get a 2+ invulnerable with a once a game re-roll (the old Runic Charm). And it'll count as a second close combat weapon since they can shield bash with it.

And All wolves will have 3 Attacks base!

If you read the DA FAQ, it address' the difference between DA wargear such as stormshields and new generic SM gear. It tells you that if an opponent asks you if it’s okay for them to use the latest version of the rules for a piece of equipment, or if they can use a new item from Codex: Space Marines in their own army, then you should say ‘Yes, of course you can!

I copied that out of the DA FAQ, but there is much more to the answer; take a look at the complete text on the GW website. Sounds like what he did wrong was assume it was ok, rather than ask your permission first as he is told to.

If I'm playing Deathwing, I'd rather keep the DA book for the stuff it gives than to just get Heavy 2 cyclones and 3+ save SS. Things like real smoke, librarians with 3 attacks / I5 base, real psychic hoods, etc. Regular marines are an entirely different story. They may as well rename the DA book Codex: *-wing cause that's all that most people play out of it.

It's a case of the grass is greener I think since all the Marine players want my wargear that I've played against. The funniest in particular was after a librarian force weaponed Shrike and a Chappie across two combat rounds.

Typically it's exactly what the FAQ specifies, which is wargear. So you would not be using any of the profiles for librarians or anyone else, you would only be using the stats from equipment specifically listed in the wargear list. It wouldn't change the stats for any units or characters. But yes, decide what is more important to you. Old psychic hoods and single shoot cyclones, or two shot cyclones and new psychic hoods, etc. My preference is for the two shot cyclone and new storm shields, those are worth more than the advantages of old smoke and hoods. That is just my personal opinion though.

To address the balance issue mentioned in the FAQ though, you should consider paying the SM 30 point cost for your cyclones rather than the DA 20. The wargear list doesn't force this on you, but if you do it voluntarily you will probably find your opponents ok with saying yes more often to allowing 5th edition wargear for DA.

In the interests of fariness, here's the ENTIRE FAQ that Kaaihn only posted a small part of. Notice that their primary answer is diametrically opposed to the snippet he posted, and then they even reiterate that answer in the last line. I've bolded both relevant lines for ease in finding them....................:

Q. There are a number of cases where things
with the same name have different rules or
characteristics in Codex Space Marines and
Codex: Dark Angels, such as the different
transport capacity for the Land Raider. There are
also a number of new items of equipment in the
Space Marines Codex that are not this one.
Which version of the rules should I use, the latest
version, or the one in Codex: Dark Angels?

A. Strictly, you should always use the rules from
your own Codex, and this is the default solution
you must use if you and your opponent can’t
come up with a better one (you’ll find that this
might be the case in tournaments, for example!).
However, always keep in mind the foreword we
have written to all of the Errata and FAQ
documents, as well as ‘The Most Important Rule’
described on page 2 of the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook, which states ‘… it is important to
remember that the rules are just a framework to
create an enjoyable game.
Winning at any cost is less important than making
sure both players – not just the victor – have a
good time.’ On this basis if an opponent asks you
if it’s okay for them to use the latest version of
the rules for a piece of equipment, or if they can
use a new item from Codex: Space Marines in
their own army, then you should say ‘Yes, of
course you can!’ Please note that ‘The Most
Important Rule’ cuts both ways, and because of
this, if you feel that a piece of new equipment
might spoil the game for your opponent by giving
your own army an unfair advantage, then you are
honour-bound not to use it.
As you can see, the nature of the Most Important
Rule means that it’s impossible to give a black
and white answer to any question that may arise;
instead you and your opponent need to discuss
things and come up with the answer that makes
both of you the happiest, keeping in mind that
having a good time is more important than
gaining a small in-game advantage. If for any
reason you can’t do this, then simply revert to the
default of using the rules from your own Codex.

Kaaihn wrote:I copied that out of the DA FAQ, but there is much more to the answer; take a look at the complete text on the GW website. Sounds like what he did wrong was assume it was ok, rather than ask your permission first as he is told to.

I'm sorry the explanation I included with the quote saying there is more and he should go look at it with a summary that he should have asked for permission somehow didn't make it seem fair to you.

Kaaihn wrote:Typically it's exactly what the FAQ specifies, which is wargear. So you would not be using any of the profiles for librarians or anyone else, you would only be using the stats from equipment specifically listed in the wargear list. It wouldn't change the stats for any units or characters. But yes, decide what is more important to you. Old psychic hoods and single shoot cyclones, or two shot cyclones and new psychic hoods, etc. My preference is for the two shot cyclone and new storm shields, those are worth more than the advantages of old smoke and hoods. That is just my personal opinion though.

I play both regular Marines and Deathwing and I'm the opposite. They play entirely different though so that's why IMO. I've always found that getting stuck into HtH is not where I want want my Deathwing to be because of model count and they have an advantage for shooting vs. HtH that won't be realized. I have plenty AT as well in my Land Raiders and Dreads so the AC does just fine. The only assault terms I have for my Deathwing is Belial's CS and they are 5 LC's and a cyclone.

I always use the rules from my DA codex, and only my codex. If I want to play vanilla SM then Ill take only VSM. Mixing the two together is confusing for both me and the perosn Im playing with.

Plus it kind of feels like cheating.

"Oh Im taking the 3+ storm shields, but they all count as troops cause they are deathwing with Belial."

That doesnt seem right to me.

12thRonin wrote:I play both regular Marines and Deathwing and I'm the opposite. They play entirely different though so that's why IMO. I've always found that getting stuck into HtH is not where I want want my Deathwing to be because of model count and they have an advantage for shooting vs. HtH that won't be realized. I have plenty AT as well in my Land Raiders and Dreads so the AC does just fine. The only assault terms I have for my Deathwing is Belial's CS and they are 5 LC's and a cyclone.

I played Deathwing until I decided to create the same concept in the SM codex, and found I just liked it more. Five man squad restrictions with the old wargear felt like I just didn't have enough concentrated firepower nor survivability to continue to play Deathwing over generic SM.

I prefer to not have house rules with every opponent anyway, the RAW is the RAW, I haven't had a game where something was broken and unplayable yet that needed a house rule. I didn't want to have to start asking to use one before every game to have the better wargear, and it was annoying me that they wimped out and didn't errata that we could use it, so that didn't help me want to keep playing Deathwing either.

Besides, with my luck where it's common for things like assault cannons to destroy my Land Raiders, I prefer Librarians with Gate of Infinity as my transport for a ten man squad of shooting terminators. Can't do that in DA at all!

However, vanilla Smurfs cannot have scoring termies no matter how you slice it. That alone makes playing DW a tempting proposition. Plus, the wound allocation rules that you can abuse with DW, as well as the 3 Apothecaries with a 6" range that they can field, make their 5 man squads fairly tough to crack.

Also, when facing the new IG PBS, I'll take fearless scoring DW over vanilla termies any day of the week

How do you take three apothacaries as Deathwing? Never noticed that as being possible.

Alerian wrote:However, vanilla Smurfs cannot have scoring termies no matter how you slice it. That alone makes playing DW a tempting proposition. Plus, the wound allocation rules that you can abuse with DW, as well as the 3 Apothecaries with a 6" range that they can field, make their 5 man squads fairly tough to crack.

Also, when facing the new IG PBS, I'll take fearless scoring DW over vanilla termies any day of the week

I am also interested in how this is possible, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Belial Allows 1
His Command Squad allows another
A second IC and Command Squad allows a third.

Ah, I gotcha. I never considered it since they wouldn't be terminators for the second and third. My Deathwing is no infantry not in terminator armor.