using orks vs high initiative troops

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**QuietOrkmi**

I was playing 40k against the local guard player, who uses old Iron hand.... anyway to make a long story short, I charged ~30 conscripts with a priest and Commissar with ~30 orks... All the orks died from the 60 S4 I4 re-rollable hits...

My initial thoughts is to template the front lines with 10 Deff-koptas with Big Bomms and carpet bomb the infantry on the first turn... any other ideas

**JD21290**

killkannon wagons, boomgun wagons, shock attack guns, burnaboyz, massed lootas.

also, deffroller wagons should work.

the big bomm option for koptas is fairly overpriced for what it does, and koptas are not the most stable unit, they tend to die quickly.

**Canonness Rory**

Tank shock them with a battlewagon.
Attack them with one Killa Kan or Deff Dread.
Shoot them with shoota boyz first.

**sourclams**

No, wrong, no no bad wrong.

Iron Hand Straken grants nearby units furious charge. That means that on the charge they are S4/I4 with 2 attacks each (2, not 3, they have a single close combat weapon) with rerolls.

If they take the charge, however, they go back to being models with S3/I3 and one attack each.

So if the conscripts charge you, they should kill (60 attacks*.75 hit%*.5 wound% *5/6 armor%) = 19 Orks at I4. Not bad.

But if they take the attack, then they kill 6 at I3.

**JD21290**

thanks for the rules post clammy

sounds simple now, just control the charges and make sure you get the charge in before he can (with a waaagh! move this shouldnt be hard)

**willydstyle**

Iron Hand also gives counter attack. So on the turn you charge the IG, they still count as charging you if they make a LD check.

He's nasty.

**Alerian**

Except...Furious Charge DOES NOT stack with Counter Attack. So, they will get the extra attack, but not the initiative and strength bonus.

Counterattack does not state that you count as charging for all purposes; the wording is clear that you only get the +1 attack "exactly as if you had charged".

**Biophysic**

They count as charging, but they don't get the furious charge bonus. Slightly scarier, but still not enough to worry a huge horde of orcs.

**olympia**

Canonness Rory wrote:Tank shock them with a battlewagon.
Attack them with one Killa Kan or Deff Dread.
Shoot them with shoota boyz first.

Three killa kans with grotzookas or a Deff Dredd with two flamers would sweep them aside without too much trouble if they can make it to the lines.

**willydstyle**

Alerian wrote:Except...Furious Charge DOES NOT stack with Counter Attack. So, they will get the extra attack, but not the initiative and strength bonus.

Counterattack does not state that you count as charging for all purposes; the wording is clear that you only get the +1 attack "exactly as if you had charged".

Fair enough.

**Razerous**

Sit in cover.

Use Shootas.

Let them come to you.

Ooooh! Strakken/priests/commissars have Frag grenades - they get to fight @ I.

The 30 odd conscripts dont. So while they have 2A str4 I4 with a re-roll on ws - Most of them will die before they manage to swing @ I1.

In the space it takes for them to get to you, they can fire lasguns @ BS2 (same as yours, so moot), @Str 3 (wounds on 5's), @ 12" on the move. Assault 2/3 depending on availible orders. vs fearless T4 6+sv.

You shoot @ str 4 (wound on 3's), @ 18", assault 2 always. At fearless (or resislient with commissars) T3 blobs 5+sv.

If you include movement, its just win all around for the orks. They get a 16.7% better save then you do, but you wound them on 3's vs thier wounds on 5's (32% differeance, so your still up on the pure numbers). Plus you should win on range hands down AND you can field heavier big-shootas. Stand in cover, shoot, take the charge & laugh at his use of conscripts.

If hes using guard, to do the same thing, then you start to worry. Deffdread (AV12 front) would be required/massive pie.

**QuietOrkmi**

So they counter charge with S3 I3?

**Alerian**

QuietOrkmi wrote:So they counter charge with S3 I3?

Yes. If anyone tries to stack Counter Charge with Furious Charge, they are cheating you

The Counter Charge USR only grants +1A, not any and all charge bonuses.

**Black Blow Fly**

I am thinking a battlewagon list can roll guard.

G

**whitedragon**

15 Burnaz in a wagon!!!!