God of War special rule - Marneus Calgar

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**Akaiyou**

This issue came up today while playing a game.

I was fielding Marneus Calgar in my list and I was fighting tyranids. The way I interpret the God of War rule if you choose to pass the morale check when losing combat there are no 'no retreat' penalties as you don't 'automaticlally pass all morale checks' and the marines aren't fearless.

It makes no sense to me to be penalized for no retreat regardless of wether you choose to pass or fail. It makes the special rule pointless IMO if you always take the penalty regardless.

My opponent questioned this 'auto pass' as being subject to no retreat. We asked around the store and it seemed like everyone agreed that anyone with combat tactics simply chooses to pass and because it's not an 'auto pass all morale checks' and they aren't fearless that they take no penalty on no retreat when losing a combat.

So just to be clear I wanted to ask other space marines players online that may know more about how Calgar's rules work in 5th Edition.

Is there or is there no penalty for choosing to pass a morale check when losing combat? And what is the reasoning behind it?

**Drudge Dreadnought**

Try a search, there has been threads on this before.

**Waaaaaaagh!**

Le facepalm

To sum it all up very Quickly:
It comes down to what Automatic means.

One camp says it is not automatic because you choose to pass it.
The other says you pass it automatically because you don't roll any dice, but just pass it.

Until GW pull their thumbs out of their Arses and stop writing such crappy rules (or at least releasing decent Errata), this will go round in circles forever

**chromedog**

IMO, it's not their thumbs that GW have to pull out of their asses.

Hasn't happened to me yet - I don't use him, and I haven't played against anyone who does.

**GrrBear**

Whenever I played with him (even under the old codex) I never had problems with this. He costs 265 points (250 if you don't take the armor), you have to have a very good reason to sink that many points into a single model.

**Akaiyou**

GrrBear wrote:Whenever I played with him (even under the old codex) I never had problems with this. He costs 265 points (250 if you don't take the armor), you have to have a very good reason to sink that many points into a single model.

EXACTLY! And I want to quote soemthing I posted on Bolter and Chainsword on the matter.

Being that I'm mainly a tyranid player and I also play Orks I must say, you are supporting that argument on a completely 100% MISINTERPRETATION.

The Ork Codex's Ghazghkull's Waagh rule says: "All non-fleeing friendly units become FEARLESS for the duration of the Waagh"

- Every single example that tried to imply that Ghazghkull's rule is ANYTHING AT ALL WHATSOEVER akin to Calgar is thus invalid. The wording couldn't be any more different. They become FEARLESS period! For that one turn no ands ifs or buts about it.

And also from the Tyranid Codex, for those unaware this is what the Synapse rule actually says: "Any brood with a model within 12" of a Synapse Creature never fall back are assumed to automatically pass any leadership-based test they are called upon to make"

- So once more the tyranid rule COMPLETELY as a matter of fact WORD FOR WORD fits the bill of what No Retreat affects. it mentions that they 'never fall back' and has the word AUTOMATIC right in there. They have absolutely no choice in the matter. Thus every single argument supported on synapse is also invalid and I saw a LOT of those.

Look these rules up yourself if you like to disagree and i challenge anyone disagreeing to show me another rule that is the same as Calgars and yet is affected by No Retreat. Without the need to bend or distort the wording to their favor.

Just for completion I want to quote the FEARLESS special rule:
"Fearless troops automatically pass all morale and Pinning tests they are required to take and will never fall back"

Can this be any clearer? It is written nearly EXACTLY like the synapse rule. It has ALL the keywords. As does every other rule that is affected by no retreat. GoW is NOT the same. Come on Calgar is worth over 250 points!! What else can he do for your army that is worth THAT many points????? Every other special character in the codex gives everyone in the army a CRAZY and unique special ability. And Calgar like it or not is the greatest of chapter masters currently so what makes people think (other than their possible disdain for Ultramarines) that he wouldn't also have a awesome ability to justify his ridiculous point cost?

Sorry if I sound rude but I was just completely apalled at the way people would throw out "TYRANIDS SYNAPSE THIS! GHAZGHKULL THAT!" without actually playing those armies and knowing at the actual rules. Which if they had done so, they'd see that they are written to completely embrace No Retreat, unlike Calgar which makes key omissions.

**Nurglitch**

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Le facepalm

To sum it all up very Quickly:
It comes down to what Automatic means.

One camp says it is not automatic because you choose to either pass or fail it.
The other says you pass it automatically because you don't roll any dice, but just pass it.

Fixed that for you.

**BoxANT**

They way I always read it is that he gives you the ability to roll double 1s or double 6s. That is to say, you choose to pass or fail, NOT to become fearless.

**Corum**

IIRC the God of War Rule allows you to choose the pass or fail. That would make it just like the Inquisitor morale rules.

IMHO, if it says you may choose, then =/= Fearless. No checks for 'No Retreat!' need be taken.

If you always pass (without a choice), then it reflects mindless bravery as opposed to calculated determination, so then 'No Retreat!' applies.

**padixon**

Myself and my friends have always played his rule and the inquisitor rule of the same type as not being like fearless.

We have always read that fearless 'No Retreat' was something that the unit had to do, and that the unit in question would 'never' fall back or give ground 'ever'. And as such, the rule was written pretty much just like that.

While the Inquisitor's rule and GoW rule allow for fall backs so the part about 'never falling back' is obviously not in the rules for GoW or the "Iron Will" rules.

**Nurglitch**

Yup, the fact that God of War gives you a choice in the matter conclusively negates the possibility of automatically passing a morale check.

**Dracos**

Nurglitch wrote:Yup, the fact that God of War gives you a choice in the matter conclusively negates the possibility of automatically passing a morale check.

I would agree. Automatically implies no decision being made. Normally the decision would be made by the dice, instead its simply made by the player.

**ifyouseekamy**

Sorry to go slightly off-topic, but what is the "No Retreat" penalty? I have a nid friend who always brings synapse, and this sparked my interest... And I also play other armies that are mostly Fearless and from what I've read so far, Fearless is affected by No Retreat penalties?

Please explain...

(and also, I agree that the GoW special rule doesn't pertain to No Retreat, seeing as it doesn't make them fearless and it doesn't say automatic)

**Dracos**

Rules for No Retreat! can be found on p.44 BGB

Essentially fearless units have to take saves for each point they lost an assault by.

**ifyouseekamy**

Oh, well I knew that part for CC and Fearless units. So that's the No Retreat rule? (I don't have the BGB, I have the mini-book that comes with the Black Reach box)

And I was just asking in terms of non-assault (I play a very shooty army, thus the inquiry)

**Dracos**

Yep, thats it for No Retreat!

**ifyouseekamy**

Awesome!

I will definitely have to remember that next time my Executioner wipes out 25+% of my 'nid friend's Gaunts. But wait... they don't really lose by points, so would it just be an additional wound/save for each on failed?

Or is it strictly assault? I'm still slightly confused lol

**Nurglitch**

No Retreat applies strictly to assaults.

**ifyouseekamy**

Aww, ok.. I'll keep it in mind once I get my CC-CSM army started though

So that's still some helpful info. Thank you.

**Canonness Rory**

If you choose to PASS then it is assumed to passed your morale check. Meaning you had to take one, but you passed it. Fearless units do not have to even take them.

**Akaiyou**

I'm glad to see that the majority of folk here have more sense in them about RAW rules than those in other forums. It's amazing how many people just wish they could add the word 'automatic' and 'never fall back' to GoW.

**orkishlyorkish**

ifyouseekamy wrote:Oh, well I knew that part for CC and Fearless units. So that's the No Retreat rule? (I don't have the BGB, I have the mini-book that comes with the Black Reach box)

And I was just asking in terms of non-assault (I play a very shooty army, thus the inquiry)

BGB and the AOBR book which iirc is the BRB are exactly the same pages when it comes to the rules. The BGB only has bigger words and I think it has more pics.

EDIT: This mistake is commonly made

-Orkishly

**Gwar!**

Canonness Rory wrote:If you choose to PASS then it is assumed to passed your morale check. Meaning you had to take one, but you passed it. Fearless units do not have to even take them.

Incorrect. Fearless units take any and all Morale Checks, they just pass them Automatically.

Page 75 wrote:Fearless troops automatically pass all Morale and Pinning tests they are required to take, and will never fall back.

**padixon**

Again, it comes down to how you view what is meant by 'Automatically'.

Some say if there is a choice than it is not automatic, like automatic cars can go to 4th gear, the driver doesn't have that option.

Some say the term automatic means if you pass without the required roll, then the passing was automatic, which also makes sense.

So, both readings are correct. All languages have words that can denote different meanings and connotations, so it is only with a clear intent of the speaker/writer can the audience be sure what is meant.

We unfortunately do not have that luxury. So, whether it is Incorrect or not *is* beyond the scope of us.

With that said, we must look also at the second criteria for fearless and that is the "never fall back". It is obvious that Iron will and GoW do not fall under this criteria.

EDIT: And welcome back Gwar, I think we went a day or two without hearing from you

**Gwar!**

padixon wrote:With that said, we must look also at the second criteria for fearless and that is the "never fall back". It is obvious that Iron will and GoW do not fall under this criteria.

That is a fallacious argument. Fearless units never fall back, but that does not mean non-fearless units are never subject to the no-Retreat Rule.

**padixon**

Gwar! wrote:
padixon wrote:With that said, we must look also at the second criteria for fearless and that is the "never fall back". It is obvious that Iron will and GoW do not fall under this criteria.
That is a fallacious argument. Fearless units never fall back, but that does not mean non-fearless units are never subject to the no-Retreat Rule.

granted, but the No Retreat rule, second paragraph does stat that the unit will also "never fall back". So it is there as well with the fearless rule.

But again, it also says that the unit does not take morale checks...which GoW units do not need to do. However GoW units can choose to take morale checks if they wish by the word "can" instead of "must" in the GoW rule.

So it seems that GoW rule covers only some criteria for No Retreat but it is obvious that the GoW units may indeed fall back so the criteria for "never" never (excuse the pun) comes into play.

So, this one is **not** RAW tight both ways IMHO. But I am with the majority of the players here (in my area) that view this rare rule (only 2 units have a rule like this the whole game) and they pay for it. And it makes sense in my eyes.

**nosferatu1001**

The rules for Combat tactics state you can choose to automatically fail the test. Therefroe having a choose does not alter the GW usage of the term "automatic"

If you choose to pass, you therefore pass automatically using the term as GW has defined it

So you can play it that GoW is exempt from No Retreat!, but that is a house rule. Saying the "never falls back" is a requirement is false, as creatures out of synapse do fall back - so now Nids are now exempt?

**padixon**

Yea, but when in Synapse, they never fall back. So, how is that false.

If you are not to set in your ways, then you can take the "Iron Will" rule Inquisitor Lords have. They themselves and the unit they are with can choose to pass or fail any LD test they are called upon to take, but if the Inquisitor is to die, then they would not have that rule anymore. Just like if a synapse creature were to die and the unit under its sway would lose that rule

Or more easily take Chaplains in units for example, the unit is Fearless when the chaplain is alive, and suffer from No Retreat, but when he is gone, they revert to their normal rules. Even a Synapse creature itself will always "Never Fall back".

Or, Sacred standards in the DA codex, in which all units within 12" are fearless, they suffer from "No Retreat" because they fulfil the requirement of being within 12" of the standard (or Synapse range if you are Tyranid), but as soon as you are out of range you are no longer under that rule anymore.

I have heard the synapse argument side before and it is a false way to play out the point you are trying to make.

As the synapse rule itself has a range and a rule when in that range and will use the No Retreat rule while in range and while "in range" the unit is both under the rule for "Synapse" and "No Retreat" and while in range "Never fall back". But out of range all the rules go away. The requirement for "Never falling back" is only a requiremnt for No Retreat and fearless, if you are neither at any given time, then you may fall back, but as soon as you are back within range of the rule that makes them fearless again, then you suffer from No retreat and will *always* Never fall back *ever* even if you wanted too. Which is *not* how Iron Will or GoW work, while under that rule, you *always* have the choice to fall back, and *never* are *forced* to stay in the fight.

The idea that a unit may fall back because it is out of range of something that makes that unit fearless does not mean that the "Never fall back" doesn't apply, because it does when under the sway of the rule that prevents them ever having the ability to fall back.

**Lordhat**

I play GoW as activating No Retreat. Only because I believe it's unclear whether the one activates the other. It's not that big of a deal anyway, as Marines have a high leadership, and are generally hard to give significantly high modifiers to. Most often I just roll for the Leadership checks.

**Gwar!**

In reality, it's not really an issue because Calgar costs more than a Bloody Land Raider with Extra Armour and no-one plays him. they all take Vulkan instead