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Akaiyou wrote:This issue came up today while playing a game.

I was fielding Marneus Calgar in my list and I was fighting tyranids. The way I interpret the God of War rule if you choose to pass the morale check when losing combat there are no 'no retreat' penalties as you don't 'automaticlally pass all morale checks' and the marines aren't fearless.

It makes no sense to me to be penalized for no retreat regardless of wether you choose to pass or fail. It makes the special rule pointless IMO if you always take the penalty regardless.

My opponent questioned this 'auto pass' as being subject to no retreat. We asked around the store and it seemed like everyone agreed that anyone with combat tactics simply chooses to pass and because it's not an 'auto pass all morale checks' and they aren't fearless that they take no penalty on no retreat when losing a combat.

So just to be clear I wanted to ask other space marines players online that may know more about how Calgar's rules work in 5th Edition.

Is there or is there no penalty for choosing to pass a morale check when losing combat? And what is the reasoning behind it?

I had to blink after reading this several times. If you choose to pass a leadership test without rolling...thats automatically passing it.

So yes, Calgar is subject to No Retreat.

" It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault or to automatically pass them for some reason...."




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaaaaagh! wrote:Le facepalm

To sum it all up very Quickly:
It comes down to what Automatic means.

One camp says it is not automatic because you choose to pass it.
The other says you pass it automatically because you don't roll any dice, but just pass it.

Until GW pull their thumbs out of their Arses and stop writing such crappy rules (or at least releasing decent Errata), this will go round in circles forever

I think they choose not to errata this because its so crystal clear.

chromedog wrote:IMO, it's not their thumbs that GW have to pull out of their asses.

KeithGatchalian wrote:I had to blink after reading this several times. If you choose to pass a leadership test without rolling...thats automatically passing it.

No, it isn't. If the player has a choice either to pass or to fail, then a unit affected by God of War does not automatically pass a leadership test.

KeithGatchalian wrote:"It's not uncommon for units to be immune to Morale checks for losing an assault or to automatically pass them for some reason...."

God of War does not permit a unit to automatically pass a Morale check for the reasons given above. That leaves being immune to Morale checks, an immunity God of War cannot confer because a player may choose for a unit to fail a Morale check.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The rules for Combat tactics state you can choose to automatically fail the test. Therefroe having a choose does not alter the GW usage of the term "automatic"

This is an interesting point. The text of Combat Tactics does indeed say that a non-Fearless unit can automatically fail any Morale check it is required to take.

The conclusion you draw is false, however. A unit with Combat Tactics can either automatically fail, or the player can roll dice for the result. The term "automatically" here is consistent with the way it is used in the text of the No Retreat!

In No Retreat! the unit may either be immune to Morale checks (such as Fearless units), or automatically pass them. To automatically pass a Morale check is to pass without any option or possibility of failure. Likewise choosing to automatically fail a Morale check is to fail without any option or possibility of success; no roll is available to fail. Either way, the use of the term "automatically" excludes other options.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you choose to pass, you therefore pass automatically using the term as GW has defined it

Nowhere in God of War, unlike No Retreat! and Combat Tactics, does it say that a unit automatically does anything. A player may choose for a unit affected by God of War to either pass or fail, and units affected by God of War include units with Combat Tactics. If you choose for the unit to pass its Morale check, instead of choosing for the unit to fail its Morale check, the unit passes its Morale check as described by the section of the rules on Morale Checks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you can play it that GoW is exempt from No Retreat!, but that is a house rule. Saying the "never falls back" is a requirement is false, as creatures out of synapse do fall back - so now Nids are now exempt?

This is also an interesting point, since, if Tyranids automatically pass Morale checks while in Synapse, and may pass or fail while not in Synapse, it may be the case that Tyranids in Synapse do not automatically pass Morale checks and that would be absurd (actually a nice proof by Reductio ad Absurdem, kudos!).

However, the problem with this argument, aside from the usual problems inherent in Reductio arguments, is that it relies on Tyranids always having a rule that lets them automatically pass Morale checks. Tyranids only automatically pass Morale checks when they are Fearless or when they are in Synapse. The fact that they may not be in Synapse is irrelevant to the fact that they do automatically pass Morale checks when in Synapse.

Essentially, what it appears that you have done is misconstrue the No Retreat! rule to say that No Retreat! saves apply if a unit never falls back when the rule states that it applies when a unit automatically passes a Morale check, and while Tyranids may fall back, they can automatically pass a Morale check.

This little slip of logic is similar to your argument that Combat Tactics allowing a unit to automatically fail a Morale check means that a unit chosen to pass or fail a Morale check is affected by No Retreat! because No Retreat! happens if the unit automatically passes a Morale check.

Firstly, you misinterpret the relation of Combat Tactics to God of War. Combat Tactics allows a player to choose that the unit automatically fails a Morale check. God of War allows a player to choose that a unit with God of War or Combat Tactics passes or fails a Morale check. Notice the lack of the adverb "automatically" in God of War.

Secondly you misinterpret the relation of the adverb "automatically" to the verb "choose", thinking that because a unit can be chosen to automatically fail, that a unit that can be chosen to pass or fail must then either automatically pass or automatically fail.

All that said you have posted the most valid and reasonable arguments I have yet to see for the position that units passing a Morale check using God of War are passing that Morale check automatically and hence are vulnerable to No Retreat. Unfortunately the arguments, while valid, were not sound (for the reasons noted above). Kudos!

I find it amusing that the most vocal people are those defending the beneficial viewpoint.

I also find Puppies amusing.

The fact is, we do not know if Choosing to pass counts as Automatically passing. We can argue about this till Ragnarök (knowing GW it will come soon after).

Choosing to pass makes it not automatic. This is a Valid Viewpoint and supported by the rules.

Choosing to pass without rolling any dice counts as automatically passing. This is also a valid Viewpoint and can be supported by the rules.

in Short: There is a VERY GOOD REASON why the 9010 other threads on the Subject have all been locked.

Dakka really needs a delete post option....or it there is one, it needs to be more obvious.

KeithGatchalian wrote:

Are you a native born speaker/reader of English? If you do not roll to pass the Leadership check then you pass it automatically. Therefore, you are subject to the No Retreat rule.

What's with the condescending tone? Are you a native Speaker of English? I see from your flag you are not. Whereas I am. I know damn well what automatic is and Choosing to pass is not passing automatically. Yes your view that because you didn't roll any die means it is automatic is also a valid viewpoint, but so is the other side. You remarks are not welcome here.

Gwar! wrote:

KeithGatchalian wrote:

Are you a native born speaker/reader of English? If you do not roll to pass the Leadership check then you pass it automatically. Therefore, you are subject to the No Retreat rule.

What's with the condescending tone? Are you a native Speaker of English? I see from your flag you are not. Whereas I am. I know damn well what automatic is and Choosing to pass is not passing automatically. Yes your view that because you didn't roll any die means it is automatic is also a valid viewpoint, but so is the other side. You remarks are not welcome here.

First, my reply was not directed at you. I apologize if you took offense at it though.

Choosing to pass means that you are not rolling the leadership roll, which could result in a positive or negative effect. Therefore, by removing an external control on the leadership check, you make it automatic. I fail to see the other side of the arguement.

You Choose to Pass the test.
You do not Choose to Pass the test automatically.

That is what is causing all the buthurt. You are choosing, so how can it be automatic?

I think a few people in this thread are trying to use the defintion of 'involuntarily' as 'automatically'. You can indeed choose to do something 'automatically'. You have choosen to pass the test without rolling. That is how you can choose for it to be automatic.

Quite correct Ghaz, as proven by Combat Tactic's.
One can 'choose' to fail 'automatically'.

Gwar! wrote:You Choose to Pass the test.
You do not Choose to Pass the test automatically.

That is what is causing all the buthurt. You are choosing, so how can it be automatic?

That's what led me to believe Fearless does not kick in. Fearless has the benefit of never running and the drawback of never running when you want them to (coupled with no retreat). Since the choice is present, you are not beholden to the automatic pass/penalty, thus GOW is an improved stubborn (Or improved Fearless). Of course, I can understand arguments for the other side.

Regardless, the rule sucks considering it's mounted on a 265 point meat-stick. It's very situational and you can already fall back with Combat Tactics (Which, is typically what you want to happen if you are losing combat considering you can't be swept). Sure, there is a situation where you are contesting that last objective on the last turn and lose by 2....but want to hang tough for the draw....but again...situational...

Cheers,

Ryan

OK, so AgeofEgos, you're saying that if a unit can run at any point in the game, it will not suffer from No Retreat (or as you state it, Fearless does not kick in)? Is that a correct assessment of your "never falls back" argument? Key word being NEVER?

If so, please consider nids and Synapse, Eldar and Avatar, Sisters and Acts of Faith. These units can fall back. They have special rules that will kick in on occasion. Per your argument tho, they do not suffer No Retreat when those rules kick in because they do not fall into the "never falls back" category. See the silliness (ie lack of validity) behind the "never falls back" argument yet?

I don't think they suffer from no retreat. Why? Simply because the unit can choose whether to pass or fail a morale test. So it is not an automatic pass.

Second paragraph "These units do not take Morale checks and will never fall back" GoW does have you take morale checks and lets you fall back.

Look at it another way GoW is replacing the Leadership test with a choice, but it is still a morale check.

Except Tri you ingore the fact that you can choose to automatically fail a test as per Combat Tactic's.
Choosing does not stop something from happening automatically.

Combat Tactics says you choose to automatically fail. So, it's an automatic failure even if normally it would not be. That's the RAW. Like a lot of rules, the addition of a word changes what you would normally do. Choice normally opposes automatic, so they needed to add automatic to Combat Tactics if that's what they wanted it to be.

Does God of War have the word 'automatic' in it? With the example of Combat Tactics, in the same codex even, the lack means it's not intended to be automatic. RAW looks like it's not an automatic failure, so not subject to No Retreat!. The Combat Tactics example shows that automatic as opposed to regular failures of morale checks is a distinction GW knows it needs to make when needed.

Either you chose to pass or fail, both of which are automatic as nothing other than your word is required to do so. (ie: no rolling of any dice)

JD21290 wrote:Either you chose to pass or fail, both of which are automatic as nothing other than your word is required to do so. (ie: no rolling of any dice)

If it were automatic, it would not require you to decide. The very fact that you have a nothing "other than" should tip you off that perhaps the other interpretation is more reasonable.

SeattleDV8 wrote:Except Tri you ingore the fact that you can choose to automatically fail a test as per Combat Tactic's.
Choosing does not stop something from happening automatically.

No but the missing word "automatic" is what stops GoW being automatic

Dracos wrote:

JD21290 wrote:Either you chose to pass or fail, both of which are automatic as nothing other than your word is required to do so. (ie: no rolling of any dice)

If it were automatic, it would not require you to decide. The very fact that you have a nothing "other than" should tip you off that perhaps the other interpretation is more reasonable.

Just to say it, and give you the example (again). . .

"A non-fearless Space Marine unit with this special rule can choose to automatically fail any Morale check it is called upon to take."

This whole thing is silly.

Calgar does not replace Chapter Tactics. In fact, he _HAS_ Chapter Tactics.

Calgar can choose to automatically fail.

Can anyone see where this is going?

One side is actually arguing that he can choose to auto-fail, but if he chooses to pass - it is not automatic?

What am I missing here - it is not text in the rules this time, apparently.

If it were automatic, it would not require you to decide. The very fact that you have a nothing "other than" should tip you off that perhaps the other interpretation is more reasonable.

Its a choice, in which you either automatically pass or fail.
You do not need to do anything to pass or fail, a choice does not remove something from being automatic, it simply adds an option before hand.

Combat Tactics tells you that you don't automatically pass or fail unless you're told you do. God of War does not. So, it's not an automatic pass or fail when you choose to pass or fail with God of War.

Writing in 'automatic' there is not the RAW.

The automatic is implied in the fact you do not roll any dice but you just pass the test. THAT is what the No Retreat Rules care about, not anything beforehand.

Unlike Fantasy, rolling dice is not mandatory for a morale test. "Some units have special rules pertaining to Morale checks that are detailed in the appropriate Codex." (BRB, p. 43).

The God of War rule tells you that the morale tests still happen. You choose to pass or fail any "[Caligar] is called upon to make".

Automatic may be "implied." Or, this may be a misinterpretation of intent.

Regardless, it is undeniable that by the RAW, God of War is not subject to No Retreat! - you are never told it is an automatic pass of the morale check. The reasons why this could be so have been given repeatedly, so I'd rather not repeat them again. However, by the RAW the reasons or justifications to reinterpret or rewrite aren't as important as the plain text. The rule you are asserting to say this is automatic is not in the BRB or the Codex.

gaylord500 wrote:Unlike Fantasy, rolling dice is not mandatory for a morale test. "Some units have special rules pertaining to Morale checks that are detailed in the appropriate Codex." (BRB, p. 43).

The God of War rule tells you that the morale tests still happen. You choose to pass or fail any "[Caligar] is called upon to make".

Automatic may be "implied." Or, this may be a misinterpretation of intent.

Regardless, it is undeniable that by the RAW, God of War is not subject to No Retreat! - you are never told it is an automatic pass of the morale check. The reasons why this could be so have been given repeatedly, so I'd rather not repeat them again. However, by the RAW the reasons or justifications to reinterpret or rewrite aren't as important as the plain text. The rule you are asserting to say this is automatic is not in the BRB or the Codex.

A perfectly Valid interpretation. Not one I personally agree with, but I understand in this case it is not clear cut, and would let you play it that way if you wished. It's not really that much of a game breaker for me to make a fuss about.

Deja Vu!

Everything posted in this thread has already been discussed ad nauseam before.

Here is a nice long thread for you to read about it:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219443.page


And here is a nice poll (with plenty more discussion) about the topic:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219633.page


I'm locking this thread because it offers nothing new to the conversation.