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I talked to someone at a game store and he recommended Army Builder to help me sort out rebuilding my armies. I saw a copy online but it indicated 4th edition.
Any good?

No good will come of this.

There are two camps.

1) Those who use it and like it, know full well that it is not a substitute for the codex/rules and merely an additional tool.
2) Those who don't like it, it's licence system, what they see as 'paying for something they can do themselves' and assorted other issues.

I'm in camp #1. I consider it worth it. Yes, you have to wait at least 30 days for the updates after codex release. Yes, there will be bugs/issues. Yes, the people who write the files are volunteers who do their best - which is still more support than GW have shown to their own inferior product.

Has the GW roster software been updated since the Eldar codex?

If it's the GW software, kick whoever offered it to you in the nuts. Now. Get off the PC, go to him, and Kick him.

What you want to get is Army Builder from Wolf Lair. The Army Building Software. Yes, its $35, but compared to what you spend on GW stuff, its a Bargain. You can even get a Demo Version for free (duh) so try it out! I have bought it and it is the best Investment I have ever made tbfh. The 40k game has Excellent Datafile support (as does WHFB) and it turns list building from a frustrating hour with the calculator to 10-20 minutes tops!

It was not at GW store. He said I should probably but didn't offer to sell it to me. I saw in Bitz Barn and in think War Store had it too.

Ah well, if it's that Army Builder, then get it. Just make sure its version 3 (not version 2).

Or even better just buy it online from Wolf Lair.

There is no demo version of AB3.

[What you download is the full version, but it is nobbled until you pay for the program properly and get the unlock code.]

That saying, I bought an actual boxed cd copy, and downloaded my second (free licence) copy as the cd key only works with a (one) cd copy - so although you have two licences, you have to download the 2nd one as just installing the cd on a 2nd machine won't work).

Paid the 'update' fee earlier this year when my year was up - and it's still cheap at the price.

I'm in camp 1 also. Definately worth the $. Click and drag, a hell of alot better than writing it out.

There are updates all the time. Even if you don't renew your liscense, you can still download updates manually.

chromedog wrote:There is no demo version of AB3.

[What you download is the full version, but it is nobbled until you pay for the program properly and get the unlock code.]

Oh You! Stop being so Pedantic

Even in AB itself it calls it a "Demonstration Mode"

my friend might have a baby with it he loves it so much. i however prefer excell

Army builder from wolf lair is easily worth the $35.

Another camp 1 guy here.

I say that you shouldn't get it. Whats the point of spending good money you can spend getting other stuff(like that new Leman russ you've been wanting ) when you can do it by hand, it takes a little while but its fun!!! I spent 3 hours looking at a picture and figuring out the point values.Yes Army Builder is organized but not as much fun or exciting.

I think it's ace, once you use it for more than one system it's definitely worth the cash.

I use it for a bunch of games, not just 40k.

It's also a handy tool for validating lists for our club tourneys and picking up arithmetic errors in people's lists.
(I do have all of the codices, and in combo with AB, it makes the checking so much easier).

@Gwar: I can't help it. I'm a half-auto-didact chaotic neutral pedant.
(see your qualifier. Demonstration mode, not demo version.).

chromedog wrote:I use it for a bunch of games, not just 40k.

It's also a handy tool for validating lists for our club tourneys and picking up arithmetic errors in people's lists.
(I do have all of the codices, and in combo with AB, it makes the checking so much easier).

@Gwar: I can't help it. I'm a half-auto-didact chaotic neutral pedant.
(see your qualifier. Demonstration mode, not demo version.).

Sir, you beat me in Pedantry. Of course, call a Spade a Spade ffs. Demo version ≡ Demonstration Mode

P.S. I like funny Symbols

It WOULD be worth if if they kept the definitions updated, which they HAVE NOT DONE.

They depend on third parties to do that, and those maintainers still do not have the IG 5th edition stuff up to date.

Until they get all of the current 5th edition stuff up to date in Army builder I will say

"Do not give them a dime."

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:It WOULD be worth if if they kept the definitions updated, which they HAVE NOT DONE.

They depend on third parties to do that, and those maintainers still do not have the IG 5th edition stuff up to date.

Until they get all of the current 5th edition stuff up to date in Army builder I will say

"Do not give them a dime."

Holy Christ on a Stick. Where do I begin.

Firstly: They CANNOT do the Datafiles themselves. They wanted to. They Really Did, but GW would not let them do them for money, so they have to let 3rd parties do them on a Volunteer basis.
Secondly: The maintainers do not have the Datafiles out, because GW will not let them release them 1 month of the release. There's a few days left until a month after release for IG.
Thirdly: They will get all the 5th edition stuff up. Like I said, they are not allowed to do it before a month. What would you Rather have? A one month Delay or No Files? other than the IG stuff(which will be out soon anyway), EVERYTHING ELSE IS THERE. Including a Ton of Variant Lists.

So yeah, They HAVE KEPT all the Definitions up to date. The IG one will be released shortly. DO YOU HAVE any idea how hard it is to code that stuff? Download the Free Datafile Creator and DO IT YOURSELF!

Also CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE control for COOL!

In conclusion: Please have some Idea of what you are talking about before opening you mouth.

Gwar! wrote:The maintainers do not have the Datafiles out, because GW will not let them release them 1 month of the release. There's a few days left until a month after release for IG.

Just wanted to highlight the important bit. I use Army Builder, and it is pure sex when it comes to tweaking your tournament list.

Armybuilder also makes it very easy to play around with lists a find stuff that fits. It can get quite annoying trying to use pen and paper.

Gwar! wrote:

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:It WOULD be worth if if they kept the definitions updated, which they HAVE NOT DONE.

They depend on third parties to do that, and those maintainers still do not have the IG 5th edition stuff up to date.

Until they get all of the current 5th edition stuff up to date in Army builder I will say

"Do not give them a dime."

Holy Christ on a Stick. Where do I begin.

Firstly: They CANNOT do the Datafiles themselves. They wanted to. They Really Did, but GW would not let them do them for money, so they have to let 3rd parties do them on a Volunteer basis.
Secondly: The maintainers do not have the Datafiles out, because GW will not let them release them 1 month of the release. There's a few days left until a month after release for IG.
Thirdly: They will get all the 5th edition stuff up. Like I said, they are not allowed to do it before a month. What would you Rather have? A one month Delay or No Files? other than the IG stuff(which will be out soon anyway), EVERYTHING ELSE IS THERE. Including a Ton of Variant Lists.

So yeah, They HAVE KEPT all the Definitions up to date. The IG one will be released shortly. DO YOU HAVE any idea how hard it is to code that stuff? Download the Free Datafile Creator and DO IT YOURSELF!

Also CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE control for COOL!

In conclusion: Please have some Idea of what you are talking about before opening you mouth.

Well yes, I DO have some idea what it takes, and no they do not have all the IG stuff ready and waiting for the magic thirty days. As for the CAPS LOCKS, I use it as I please, are you really age 7? And I know when to cap as required and when it is optional, or DO AS I PLEASE, like that.

If you run Space marines then the files get updated in a burst of speed as that is what most of the volunteers run, if you run something else then not so quick, there are still not total updates for the 3rd edition Witch hunters.... In the end if one is going to pay for a program that has a oddball licensing scheme it might not be too much to hope they keep it updated.

As much as I understand just how difficult GW can be, for a company that basically has a lock on a market, and the owners of Army Builder do have such a lock, I got tired of the "depending on volunteers because GW won't let them do it any other way" excuse a long time ago. Show me a GW legal challenge sent out to either the owners of Army Builder or the maintainers. You will not find one. GW has not sued the maintainers, and it is not because they are volunteers..

I see nothing in the law that would prevent that company from paying someone to make those files, they just choose not to because they know volunteers will do it.


In conclusion: YOU Please have some Idea of what you are talking about before opening your mouth.

It looks like it will help me alot since I have four armies to update. Making my Eldar lists is about as much fun as putting war walkers together. The price is about the same as a wave serpent so its not unreasonable if saves me a lot of time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh I forgot my nephew just getting into WH40K so I can help build a list as well.

As has been mentioned, the datasets are not perfect so you do have to go through and check that all the options are legal and the points are correct.

Personally, I find the interface pretty clunky and not really any easier than using a spreadsheet.

On the other hand, the printed list you get at the end is very nice - much nicer than I can be bothered to make myself.

I like army builder because there's no margin of err on the point counts. Too often I've been in a game where someone has fudges the numbers to her that extra power fist or worse. If I see an army builder list at least I know I'm not going to have the wool pulled over my eyes. I use it and encourage its use. It's a $35 piece of mind.

I mainly use a codex and pen and paper for lists for regular 40k games. Then again, I have legible handwriting - the same cannot be said for many of my clubmates.

For something like combat patrol where there are more restrictions, I'll use AB.

For doing up characters for my club's inquisitor game, I use AB. For validating and cross checking tourney lists it is an extra bit of insurance.

NeedleOfInquiry wrote:As much as I understand just how difficult GW can be, for a company that basically has a lock on a market, and the owners of Army Builder do have such a lock, I got tired of the "depending on volunteers because GW won't let them do it any other way" excuse a long time ago. Show me a GW legal challenge sent out to either the owners of Army Builder or the maintainers. You will not find one. GW has not sued the maintainers, and it is not because they are volunteers..

I see nothing in the law that would prevent that company from paying someone to make those files, they just choose not to because they know volunteers will do it.


In conclusion: YOU Please have some Idea of what you are talking about before opening your mouth.

I do have some Idea. In fact, I shall Repost here what has been said on WL own forums:

As for paying us, or being employees, or Lonewolf developing the files themselves. These are not options. The reason is very simple.

Intellectual Property. All games systems have copywrights on their game material. If we developed our files and charged for the service, we could be sued by GW for instance as we are making money on their product. As such we do develop our files, but they ARE NOT a replacement for the printed codex rules. In fact, you are still required to own the Codex rules if you use the datafiles.

As for LW making the files themselves, these same issues would arise for them. This is a key reason for LW specifically NOT providing datafiles. They also DO NOT HOST the files. They do however provide a services that when files are updated and those datafile maintainers provide the file locations, AB will get the updated files for you. You however are not required to use the auto-update feature and therefor not pay the annual subscription.

I understand that the 5ed codex has been wanted for a LONG time, however please understand that as volunteer gamers doing this on our own time, we will only get them done when we have the time.

The purchase of Army Builder did not provide you the purchase of datafile rulesets also. It DID however provide you the tools to create any datafile ruleset you wish. Every person is more than able to maintain their own files. I personally recommend against it, as if everyone did their own files then how do you know their version is correct? But if we are not getting something done fast enough, that is an option provided.

As always, the maintainer team will continue to create a unified standard datafile set that 'should' be used to confirm validity of lists. These updates will be done when we have the time and resources to get them done. I am sorry, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and that also goes for the datafiles. As for bugs, they happen. We are only a dev/test group of about a dozen people. We cannot possibly come up with every single varied list that is possible in a codex, and sometimes programming works one way, but when applied in another it breaks. Even Microsoft has bugs if their software.

How many of you are running Vista right now? That was released with piles of bugs, and more show up every day. That is why you get an update almost weekly! These updates from MS are provided weekly because they have hundreds of developers to help fix issues. We do not, so our updates will take a bit longer.

So, OH SNAP! There is something in the law stopping them doing it!
Now, I would appreciate a Public Apology for your Libel (Slander is spoken, Libel is Written)

I generally write up my lists on paper, when I'm happy with the list I put it on Army builder and print it for tournaments.
I have used it for some reference on different armies. I would say buy it due to the fact that it is the best way to show your army meets all requirements and it gives all info needed to your opponent. Most hand written and excel lists won't show stats of troops and weapons. I think it is a big plus to have.

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

Gwar! wrote:
So yeah, They HAVE KEPT all the Definitions up to date. The IG one will be released shortly. DO YOU HAVE any idea how hard it is to code that stuff? Download the Free Datafile Creator and DO IT YOURSELF!

It's trivial to edit, or create datafiles. I had the new guard codex in a datafile before the codex was released. If you're going to use armybuilder, learn to use the authoring tool, you'll save yourself a lot of aggravation.

"So, OH SNAP! There is something in the law stopping them doing it!
Now, I would appreciate a Public Apology for your Libel (Slander is spoken, Libel is Written) "

The difference between stupid and dumb is you can grow out of one of them, good luck to you on it.

Lone Wolf ---- If we developed our files and charged for the service, we could be sued by GW for instance as we are making money on their product.

Game Workshops----
"Accordingly, you can do quite a lot of things with our intellectual property without having a formal license with us" See the "Formal License" part?

OH SNAP, let me fix that Lone Wolf part.....

If we developed our files and charged for the service,

without agreeing to a formal license with Game Workshops and giving them money for using their intellectual property

we could be sued by GW for instance as we are making money on their product

so instead we will sell a product that is dependent on volunteers completing a necessary part to avoid giving Game Workshops their due and shipping a completed product, please ignore that we advertise it as a complete product.

From the Lone Wolf page where on Army Builder

http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=army_builder



For miniatures gamers, Army Builder® is as vital as glue and paint. Create rosters in minutes and let Army Builder handle the bookkeeping. Full stats and details for every unit are right at your fingertips. Errors are automatically flagged when a roster isn't legal. Detailed printouts save you time and let you focus on the game. See for yourself why Army Builder is the industry standard used by miniatures players worldwide! Just follow the links below.

"Full stats and details for every unit are right at your fingertips."

Go ahead and click thru the order process....show me on THOSE pages where it says otherwise.

There we go, OH SNAP

Yes, I know you need maintainer files, the question is

How many new players to 40k know that when they see the "Full stats and details for every unit are right at your fingertips."?

You did notice the "Full stats and details for every unit are right at your fingertips." just to make sure you noticed....

To make the point, there is nothing in the law stopping them from doing it, they just do not want to get into an agreement with Game Workshops and cough up some of their money to do so.

Lest someone mention that Lone Wolf just makes the system software and never drills down into the specifics of a game, look on their web site at their newer products.

When you learn to format your Posts rather than make them an unreadable copypaste nightmare, I'll come back to you