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Gwar! wrote:When you learn to format your Posts rather than make them an unreadable copypaste nightmare, I'll come back to you

There was a reason it was formatted that way, guess you were not lucky....

Lucky? Please, elaborate why you formatted it so badly.

Appearantly NeedleOfInquiry wants to pay an extra $30 for the Games Workshop army files. Or the author of NeedleOfInquiry's post thinks that the Army Builder authors should engage in licensing negotiations with all of the companies which produce the games for which people produce data files. Then again, appearantly that same author thinks that modern poetry is a good template to use when formatting forum posts.

I've heard people say that they don't want to use Army Builder because they want to get to know their army list better. Personally, I like Army Builder because it's more convenient when I'm adding and removing options and trying to see what I can fit into my point limits.

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

PWND! Gwar got served!


Don't you love when people try to sound intelligent by correcting other peoples posts, but fail to look up the words they intend to use.

Clthomps wrote:

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

PWND! Gwar got served!


Don't you love when people try to sound intelligent by correcting other peoples posts, but fail to look up the words they intend to use.

So saying that the Volunteers are a bunch of Lazy gitz is not damaging their reputation?

It would take time and money to prove it in courts, but it would be.

Don't use Army Builder...

...it'll just depress you.

You'll make awesome lists for armies you don't have the codex for and then get bummed out because all that stuff hurts your wallet.



I use it for 40k, WHFB, Warmachine, and Hordes... I also use it for lists consisting of nothing but Tau Pirahnas... *sniff* someday, my Pirahnas, someday

Speaking of AB, I was just playing around with it an noticed that it lets you take Crusaders as henchmen in a DH list.

Clthomps wrote:Speaking of AB, I was just playing around with it an noticed that it lets you take Crusaders as henchmen in a DH list.

I think that's probably a bug. Sign up to the website and report it. It will more than likely be fixed in the next release.

Good if you have it, worth it if you have either a lot to play with and are constantly changing your lists, if not, just do it by hand, I use a calculator and subtract what I am taking, I usually end up about where I want. Except with the new Guard Codex, may take a while before I get things worked out again (BTW, the Valkyrie is worth EVERY point!)

Camp #1. Army builder is fantastic.

Gwar! wrote:If it's the GW software, kick whoever offered it to you in the nuts. Now. Get off the PC, go to him, and Kick him.

What you want to get is Army Builder from Wolf Lair. The Army Building Software. Yes, its $35, but compared to what you spend on GW stuff, its a Bargain. You can even get a Demo Version for free (duh) so try it out! I have bought it and it is the best Investment I have ever made tbfh. The 40k game has Excellent Datafile support (as does WHFB) and it turns list building from a frustrating hour with the calculator to 10-20 minutes tops!

Unfortunately I have to agree with Gwar here. The wolfs lair version is just amazing, and they update it when new codexes and rule changes come out as well. Well worth the 35 bucks.

We're getting close to a lockdown here...

Debate the merits (or not) of Armybuilder, but let's leave off with the personal attacks?

OK?

2000 Volts wrote:I like army builder because there's no margin of err on the point counts. Too often I've been in a game where someone has fudges the numbers to her that extra power fist or worse. If I see an army builder list at least I know I'm not going to have the wool pulled over my eyes. I use it and encourage its use. It's a $35 piece of mind.

This is the biggest problem with AB - people take it as gospel when, in fact, anyone can go in and edit the points values.

Scott-S6 wrote:This is the biggest problem with AB - people take it as gospel when, in fact, anyone can go in and edit the points values.

Anyone who knows what they are doing, yes. You need to edit the files, but you also need to know what to change. For many it is simply too much effort.

Besides, the same people who would do this are generally the same ones who would fudge the numbers in any other list they generated.

It has removed the chance of getting a scrawled list on the back of a barmat, or a sheet of paper that a drunk chicken wandered across with muddy feet. It gives me a legible list that is laid out so that most details are obvious. Yes, there are some .xls files out there that will do the same, but many people prefer the easier option.

Camp #1 - Armybuilder is awesome. I could probably make up my own magic spreadsheet, but I'm lazy. While the AB interface takes a bit of getting used to, I don't see that its particularly unwieldy. considering the number of options available to certain troop types the interface is quite logical.

Gwar! wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

PWND! Gwar got served!


Don't you love when people try to sound intelligent by correcting other peoples posts, but fail to look up the words they intend to use.

So saying that the Volunteers are a bunch of Lazy gitz is not damaging their reputation?

It would take time and money to prove it in courts, but it would be.

To prove Libel (Defamation), you have to prove Falsifiability, Malice and actual (not just emotional) Damage. This is hard to do when the AB Datafile authors haven't weighed in. Seeing as how they are, by default, an anonymous/faceless group - it's kinda hard for them to claim damage to a reputation. Also as volunteers, they couldn't attach a dollar value to the damage to a reputation, that - even if it exists - only serves for volunteer work.

However: accusing someone of Malicious Defamation in an open forum, such as this one, with other third parties present is, in itself, Defamatory. NeedleofInquiry will be in contact through cousel soon I expect.

Sorry, but in the Land of the First Amendment, Libel is easy to threaten and hard to prove. Just ask Papa Bear after his discussion with Tonya Acker.

I own AB, I use it, but I do feel a little taken advantage of when they ask $40 for a program that is nigh-unto useless without the efforts of third-party volunteers. Needle, we all know that WL wouldn't be able to give the program away without the cooperation of GW. They can 1) choose to thumb their nose at GW and run the risk of a combative business relationship, or 2) acquiesce to GW modest request for a delay in releasing a file to prevent friction. They have chosen the latter. Other companies have not, and they are still in business today. It is an unfortunate reality of the game we play. I don't like it either, and I'm not going to join in the chorus of voices singing the praises of WL, but it is the Least Worst of all of the army list makers out there.

Sirs i bite my thumb at you and bid you good day

I liked the 2.x versions of Army Builder (not because they were crackable), but find the newer 3.x versions to be unintuitive and generally a pain in the ass. Since the changeover I've stuck to Excel.

Fortunately so many armies are so ridiculously out of date (Dark Eldar, Daemonhunters, Witchhunters, Necrons, Tau, etc) that Army Builder 2 still works for them!

Gwar! wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

Libel requires that the plaintiff's reputation suffers harm and that actual damages occur in most cases. I don't think that applies here.

PWND! Gwar got served!


Don't you love when people try to sound intelligent by correcting other peoples posts, but fail to look up the words they intend to use.

So saying that the Volunteers are a bunch of Lazy gitz is not damaging their reputation?

It would take time and money to prove it in courts, but it would be.

Not in the legal sense. Under common law, insults are not defamation. In addition, the plaintiff would have to show actual monetary damages unless the defamation fell into one of four fairly narrow categories (disease, crime, failure in office, lack of female chastity).

English libel law is more favorable to plaintiffs, but the above is still true there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_libel_law

A: Any computer programme is crackable. Dont care what people say, its still the case.

B: "blah blah, we have all things you need" implies that it actually woudl be useful for my 5th ed guard. Distance selling laws in the UK say you MUST accept a return with full refund (you pay postage, not me) if it doesnt do what it says it does, which, excuse my over-reppetition of words here, it doesnt.

C: 25 pounds (40 dollars, ish) for something that in any other market would be freeware or shareware? GTFO. I mean, i'd donate to (and have, in other markets, again) something useful like this, and freeware products can pretty easily thumb their noses at "dont release this until x date" instructions from the manufacturer. Stick a "you must own codex Y to use armylist Z" in the EULA, legally untouchable.

D: Gwar!, I take great satisfaction right now in saying, you're NOT right. Rah.

E: I declare Cookies for everyone. *hands out cookies*

I for one one am in Camp 2.

but not because of what the first reply said, more because of errors, bugs, incompatabilities, and overall crappyness.

Yes, you can make army lists really fast, but what if there is an error in AB, and your list is actually not valid but AB allows it? Volunteers create the datafiles, they are Far from perfect. The gaming store i used to go to had a computer with AB hooked up to a printer in the back so people could make lists quick for pickup games, when i had an opprotunity i checked it out and in the first sitting I found 4 or 5 errors with just the vampire counts army.

If you do the math yourself for creating your army you will quickly learn the values of all the units, all the upgrades etc, and in no time at all you can conceptualize and create lists without being tied to your computer.
It also forces you to go through your codex occasionally and possibly find things that AB may have missed.

AB is a tool that i find is best used for quickly creating army lists for casual games that you dont have a point value list prepared for. If you have a laptop that you carry with you to the gaming stores and tend to not have lists prepared, its worth it. If you have a little bit of time before you go to the stores to draw up lists at different point values yourself, then its not worth it.

I'll go B. I enjoy being able to change my list without a computer. Pick up games aren't always the same point values and I am not carrying twenty different army lists around everywhere i go for each army I play. Yes AB is more organized I would hope you could borrow someone's come tourney time but I won't get it. The choice is yours.

Oh and if you suck at math you better get it.

Demogerg wrote:I for one one am in Camp 2.

but not because of what the first reply said, more because of errors, bugs, incompatabilities, and overall crappyness.

Yes, you can make army lists really fast, but what if there is an error in AB, and your list is actually not valid but AB allows it? Volunteers create the datafiles, they are Far from perfect. The gaming store i used to go to had a computer with AB hooked up to a printer in the back so people could make lists quick for pickup games, when i had an opprotunity i checked it out and in the first sitting I found 4 or 5 errors with just the vampire counts army.

If you do the math yourself for creating your army you will quickly learn the values of all the units, all the upgrades etc, and in no time at all you can conceptualize and create lists without being tied to your computer.
It also forces you to go through your codex occasionally and possibly find things that AB may have missed.

Seconding this.

Plus, the whole licence thing is dodgy as hell.

And this is coming from someone who owns a netbook he could easily use AB on for rapid list building but OpenOffice.Calc and Notepad are both easier and better.

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
Plus, the whole licence thing is dodgy as hell.

Just an FYI, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that, it's still not going to be true.

Bookwrack wrote:

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
Plus, the whole licence thing is dodgy as hell.

Just an FYI, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that, it's still not going to be true.

You mean apart from the part where it is true and limited use licences are rediculous?

ChrisAsmadi wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

ChrisAsmadi wrote:
Plus, the whole licence thing is dodgy as hell.

Just an FYI, it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that, it's still not going to be true.

You mean apart from the part where it is true and limited use licences are rediculous?

If EA and just about any sort of Security Software can do it and get away with it so can Wolf lair.

Camp #2 - Mac user

Though back in the day I did use Army Builder v2 something. Didn't much care for it. The printouts were pretty but the interface didn't suit me and it actually took me more time to put a list together with it. The new version might be better, but I wouldn't know.

Camp 1, Love the interface, love that it's multiple systems, love the print outs.

Best $ I've spent in the hobby.

I did not read the thread but I personally believe Army Builder is a great program. In fact, since I am in fact employed I think it is about time I got past the "three units only" demo program.

I haven't used AB yet, but I've thought about it. The biggest stumbling block for me is that I use a Mac laptop, so it is either be tied to my Wintel box at home, or figure out something else. I've opted for the later right now.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of a Mac equivalent that isn't a plain Spreadsheet?