Autarch + Farseer + 4 'Locks + Falcon: Solid melee assist unit or point sink?

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**Magc8Ball**

While searching for my next conversion project, I decided to do up an Autarch (on foot). Before I start, though, I need to figure out how to equip him, and have probably settled on PW+Mandiblasters+Fusion Gun. My original intent would be to combine him with a farseer and my squad of Striking Scorpions, but then I thought of another option.

The way my army is built out at the moment is the fairly traditional "fire base plus fast assault force" layout. Reaper and Wraithlord lay down fire, Scorps/Dragons in Serpents skim in and assault or melt enemies. Along this vein, I'm wondering if having a third unit for this task would be beneficial or would have a hard time making back its points. The unit would be the above Autarch, Farseer (Fortune), 4 Warlocks (1 each power), and a Falcon (equipped with whatever makes it most survivable in the current edition).

(I also suppose that at some point when I can afford to buy one, mounting them in a Wave Serpent would be just as good a choice, both in terms of points and force org choices, but I'm working with what models I have right now.)

Ideally, the unit will be kept in reserve along with the two Serpents, with the Autarch increasing the chance of having all three come in at once, providing a hard-hitting flank force. I'd appreciate feedback from folks as to their experiences running with this sort of a unit. I realize that it's just a variation on the tank-carried Seer council, so comments on how effective those have been are welcome as well.

Thanks, all.

**willydstyle**

Why not just run harlequins?

**Magc8Ball**

Because I don't have a bunch of harlie models sitting around in a box in the closet like I do warlocks.?

**willydstyle**

Ok, then take the points that you would have spent on the autarch, and buy more warlocks.

**jertor20**

This is basically the same question I'm posing in another thread, only mounted on bikes. A similar sort of question arises because on bikes, the autarch, farseer, and locks can easily clock in over 500 pts. Running them in a Falcon can't be any cheaper by much.

**willydstyle**

jertor20 wrote:This is basically the same question I'm posing in another thread, only mounted on bikes. A similar sort of question arises because on bikes, the autarch, farseer, and locks can easily clock in over 500 pts. Running them in a Falcon can't be any cheaper by much.

Why a Falcon? Why not a waveserpent. Cheaper, holds more models, and is just as durable agaisnt melta weapons.

**Magc8Ball**

In my case, it's just 'cause I've got a Falcon and two Serpents.

As for Jertor: A Falcon runs around 190, a Serpent around 110-120, and the bikes alone are (2*30)+(x*20) where x is the number of warlocks. For a 6-man unit, then, you're paying 140; 10-man you're paying 220 points.

In either case, the jetbikes aren't bringing you any additional benefits in terms of firepower. You do have the advantage of not having to disembark before charging into melee, however.

As to which one is the best choice for you, I can't really say. My own playstyle usually leaves me wanting as many options as possible, and the extra vehicle (for contesting, or just for flying around shooting things) will usually be my own preference.

**whitedragon**

You usually want to use a falcon with a holofield to transport a scoring unit of dire avengers and keep it far away from meltas, because anything else has terrible odds with the holo-field.

You want a wave serpent holding a unit of assault troops or troops that will close with the enemy because they are more durable against meltas (due to the energy field) and the energy field makes las and railguns less effective.

**willydstyle**

For every two falcons with holofields, you can have 3 waveserpents though.

Yes, the holofield does provide better protection in some circumstances, but it's not very cost-efficient.

Also, if jetbike warlocks are going to be possible for you, they're far, far superior to a warlock squadron in either transport.

**Avariel**

As Willydstyle said. Jetbike Warlocks are far superior then Warlocks on foot.

Farseer, Fortune, Runes of Warding, Jetbike
7-8 Warlocks on Jetbike, 2 Embolden 1-2 Enhance, 0-3 Destructor.

Jetbikes with Fortune give you a rerollable 3+/4++ better save which is important with Libbys with Null Zone around and you are more mobile and not dependent on a transport staying alive.

The large squad size you can get not being in a Falcon is also important to keep wounds off your farseer and embolden warlocks and have enough attacks to win combat res.

You can add an Autarach if you want but Autarach costs about as much as 3 Warlocks.

**whitedragon**

The bikes also give you T4, which is pretty important.

Jetbikes are much better than the foot council, but a foot council in a wave serpent is not bad, as long as it's maxed out and led by Eldrad!

The holofield ensures that you can keep the falcon alive when you need to. SMF save plus the holofield makes it pretty hard to take the thing down. On the other hand, the wave serpent is alot cheaper and works better in close, which is where you'll be if you are dropping troops off. There are some times where a fully armed falcon can help out as a gunboat as well. The falcon is not a terrible choice, but the wave serpent is alot cheaper, meaning you can put more vehicle hulls out there.

However, in my 1750 list, I get to a point where I don't have enough points for another squad and wave serpent, so I sometimes change one 5 man Dire Avenger's Wave Serpent into a Falcon for grins.

**wuestenfux**

Its too small, not ablative wounds.
I suggest at least 8 Warlocks, two with embolden, one with enhance.

**Sliggoth**

My main problem with the falcon is that it takes up a heavy slot.

In a 1750-2000 point army, heavy slots are already easy to fill with WL, prisms, walkers or in this list a reaper squad too.

Its not just the falcon vs serpent differences that need to be looked at. Also look at the new empty heavy slot that a serpent opens up.

Sliggoth

**Magc8Ball**

For purposes of my own list, at least the 1750 one that I'm putting together, has at least one slot free in each category. I'm limited more by what models I have or available points than by force org slots.

The current 1750-1850 list that I've put together (this should help some context) currently runs like this:
-Farseer (either fortune riding with scorps or guide near reapers)
-2x10 DA's, on foot
-5-8 Pathfinders
-6 Jetbikes+Warlock
-10 Scorps + WS
-8-10 FD's + WS
-Reapers
-Wraithlord (either BL+ML or MOAR DAKKA version)

If I go with the mini-council, I'm not totally sure what I'd be pulling out... in actuality the mini-council is much more likely to appear in 2K or 2250 list. At any rate, for my uses what I'm looking for is an army's "final piece", something that helps tie it together tactically, not a major centerpiece that is what the army relies on fully. (Another issue for me, admittedly, is that I've not actually PLAYED 5th Edition yet, so I haven't gotten a good feel for how important Scoring Units are. I'm kind of erring on the side of caution here in taking four Troops choices. This might be 3rd Edition Comp Scoring thinking, though.)

If I was building a fresh Eldar army, from scratch, I'd most likely build one around a full Seer Council, either 10+2 ICs in a Serpent or something on bikes. As it stands, though, a bike-mounted council will have to wait until I can afford more bike sprues (the ones I have are dedicated to the guardian squad I need to build out). I'll probably be painting up as many warlocks as I can dig out of storage, though, for future In-Serpent use.

**wuestenfux**

I'd take 2 DA units in Serpents and either a Jetbike squad or Pathfinders. Moreover, I'd pick 2x 6 FDs in Serpents.
The rest could start from there, giving the Seer Council a Serpent.

**Savnock**

Magc8Ball wrote:As it stands, though, a bike-mounted council will have to wait until I can afford more bike sprues (the ones I have are dedicated to the guardian squad I need to build out). I'll probably be painting up as many warlocks as I can dig out of storage, though, for future In-Serpent use.

Psssst: Use Guardian weapon platforms. Stick your foot Warlocks on them. Voila! Also, you won'tcry when you've hand-converted a whole squad and the new jetbikes come out, making your Council look like they picked up their rides at the used hover lot.

**Magc8Ball**

Well, I'm already going to HEAVILY convert the jetbikes I do have (going for a more forward riding position, similar to the Dark Eldar bikes). If I have any bikes in the army I want them to all at least appear to be the same.

Also, I'm saving the platform trick for my wife's Dark Eldar army if we decide some Hellions would be cool in it.

**Emperors Faithful**

Save points, lose the autarch.
Seriosly my unupgraded IG sereant took down a teched out autrarch...Sad...Funny

, but sad.
Farseers and Warlocks I have a healthy respect for (Emperor Damn enchance!) as there witchblades make a mockery of poorly armoured monstous creatures, or anything without great armour.
As for a falcon, funnily enough I fight against fire prisms more(Damn them too), so I can't really say much for transport.
How about bikes?

**Exarch_Nektel**

I would drop the idea alltogether and use an autarch with 10 banshees in a wave serpent. If you don't have the models, however, I would drop the whole idea for more support troops like guardians (use those warlocks for the guardians' protection instead of for a seer council.)

**willydstyle**

Exarch_Nektel wrote:I would drop the idea alltogether and use an autarch with 10 banshees in a wave serpent. If you don't have the models, however, I would drop the whole idea for more support troops like guardians (use those warlocks for the guardians' protection instead of for a seer council.)

So, you're seriously giving advice that he should give up on using one of the best units in the game, the jetbike seer council, in order to take more of one of the worst units in the game, Guardians?

All I can say is that if he follows this advice he won't be doing himself any favors.

**Emperors Faithful**

willydstyle wrote:
Exarch_Nektel wrote:I would drop the idea alltogether and use an autarch with 10 banshees in a wave serpent. If you don't have the models, however, I would drop the whole idea for more support troops like guardians (use those warlocks for the guardians' protection instead of for a seer council.)

So, you're seriously giving advice that he should give up on using one of the best units in the game, the jetbike seer council, in order to take more of one of the worst units in the game, Guardians?

All I can say is that if he follows this advice he won't be doing himself any favors.

Gonna have to agree with him here Exharch_Nektel, honestly in my opinion guardians rank slightly lower than guardsmen (higher range, cheaper etc). I wouldn't trust a guardian squad to hold my hankerchief let alone an objective, even with a warlock. If you want something for an eldar troop, then get avengers to take objective and pathfinders to shoot and hold (OMG, they are amazing in cover!)

**willydstyle**

Considering that Guardians with a single heavy weapon and a warlock cost twice as much as Guardsmen with a couple of good guns... seriously... Guardsmen are way better than Guardians.

Only use Guardians if you enjoy removing models from the table without actually killing anything.

Storm Guardians can be an exception... if you buy them a waveserpent... and they're still overpriced.

**Emperors Faithful**

Are storm guardians a troop choice?

Anyway I just realised that a farseer squad is THE thing to kill that Emperor-damned nightbringer!
Still don't think much of the autarch though.

**willydstyle**

Storm Guardians are just an upgrade for regular guardians, swap out the catapult for pistols and CCWs, and you can buy two special weapons (flamer or fusion gun) instead of a heavy weapon platform.

And yeah, warlocks are great for killing high-toughness things, especially when they only have a 3+ or 4+ saving throw.

**Emperors Faithful**

willydstyle wrote:Storm Guardians are just an upgrade for regular guardians, swap out the catapult for pistols and CCWs, and you can buy two special weapons (flamer or fusion gun) instead of a heavy weapon platform.

And yeah, warlocks are great for killing high-toughness things, especially when they only have a 3+ or 4+ saving throw.

I don't think i'd take a warlock against anything that had a 3+ armour, unless there was a wraithlord/guard behind him!

**willydstyle**

Nah, warlock squads do fine against 3+ armor. If one of the warlocks has enhance, they're attacking before MEQs, hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. Even if they make a bunch of their saves, you've probably forced a save or two on the sergeant, etc. and have a good chance of reducing the effectiveness of their melee.

**Emperors Faithful**

willydstyle wrote:Nah, warlock squads do fine against 3+ armor. If one of the warlocks has enhance, they're attacking before MEQs, hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. Even if they make a bunch of their saves, you've probably forced a save or two on the sergeant, etc. and have a good chance of reducing the effectiveness of their melee.

Sorry to sink your boat but warlocks or only Inititive 4, with Enhance thats 5, but its not all that hard to beat with Sisters of Battle and Faith points (Passion; add 2+ to In)

**willydstyle**

Well, sisters throw kinks into a lot of things, but considering that if you're on a bike they'll be wounding on 5s, even if they go at the same time as you it's no big deal. Of course, they can dump a bunch of faith points into one CC and do some divine guidance too... but considering that one tests for over squad size, and the other tests for under, and they'll be going up against a re-rollable invulnerable save, they're still not going to be doing much damage to warlocks.

**Emperors Faithful**

Ah-hem,
How about I just say...bolters.
All I need to do is cause 2 wounds against that warlock and he's toast at T3 or 4. Guardians are screwed with Ap5 bolters.
You do not know how many people have gone 'Sobs? Hah!

' then have an act of faith blow up in thier face?

Little list of what a single sister squad has killed with bolters:
-Carnie
-Avatar (on 3 wounds)
-Termies (close though)
-Pretty much everything they've had a decent shot at.
The only thing to stop them is a damn T8 creature

**willydstyle**

I think we've got mixed signals. When you said "farseer squad" I assumed that you meant a squad of warlocks, not the single warlock upgrade for guardians.