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Firstly - does an Ork Runtherd/Slaver's grabba stikk count as a CCW? It doesn't specifically state this whereas it does for other weapons. This is only important with regards to my main question:

Is a grabb stikk/grot-prod a one-handed or two-handed weapon? I would initially have said 2, as the previous codex had a grabba stikk listed as such. However, the current one says no such thing, so does that mean it is automatically a one-handed weapon (other weapons such as the Big Choppa are specifically stated as two-handed)? In other words, when combined with the slugga would, would the runtherd get an extra attack in CC?

It means no such thing, unfortunately.

If you are not told whether it is 1 or 2 handed you cannot claim the bonus for having 2 CCW

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you are not told whether it is 1 or 2 handed you cannot claim the bonus for having 2 CCW

Owch, alot of models will be losing thier bonus attacks under this ruling.

Drunkspleen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you are not told whether it is 1 or 2 handed you cannot claim the bonus for having 2 CCW

Owch, alot of models will be losing thier bonus attacks under this ruling.

Agreed. Very few codices list weapons as one hand or two anymore, and not many list what are supposed to be assumed as Close Combat Weapons AS close combat weapons, instead relying on things like "sword" or other words to appear that let the reader assumed they are close combat weapons. I will have to check, but I don't think Chainswords (a popular Imperial CCW listing) is verified to be a "one handed close combat weapon." So I guess everyone who has ever played them as such in the current codices could be wrong (I will have to check the codices to make sure though).

I think it is pretty safe to assume that if all other weapons in the codex are listed as close combat weapons or not, but this one isn't then it wouldn't be. This might be a ruling you will want to take higher, however, as it may have been an accidental omission, or perhaps you are reading it wrong.

A Grabba stick "attacks normally", as well as getting the -1A special, so sounds like a CCW.
The model seems to be using it 1H, but this is probably not enough. :(

Grot-Prod is a "formidable CCW", but again, no mention of hands :(

GW really should have clarified how many hands CCW need!

Oh god not this again.

No, if a weapon is not specified as two handed, you get the bonus attack if it is paired with another weapon.

the reverse means People with pistols and CCW don't get the bonus attacks, as Pistols are never stated as one handed.

The only thing preventing you claiming bonus attacks are the weapon being explicitly stated as Two handed, a rule regarding the type of weapon (eg Power Fist) or a special rule.

If you are not told whether it is 1 or 2 handed you cannot claim the bonus for having 2 CCW

That is false. The answer is that we don't know whether it is one- or two-handed thus we don't know if it can be used to gain an additional attack in close combat.

The only thing preventing you claiming bonus attacks are the weapon being explicitly stated as Two handed...

Incorrect. The only thing that grants you a bonus attack in close combat is that both weapons be single-handed, not that they just not be two-handed.

Ghaz wrote:

If you are not told whether it is 1 or 2 handed you cannot claim the bonus for having 2 CCW

That is false. The answer is that we don't know whether it is one- or two-handed thus we don't know if it can be used to gain an additional attack in close combat.

The only thing preventing you claiming bonus attacks are the weapon being explicitly stated as Two handed...

Incorrect. The only thing that grants you a bonus attack in close combat is that both weapons be single-handed, not that they just not be two-handed.

No, a basic CCW is one-handed. They always specify 2H weapons as such. If we don't count CCWs without any specification, CSMs don't get a second attack, nor do Khorne Berzerkers Or Orkz ("Choppaz count as normal CCWs") Any way you try to play the game that says an orc with choppa+slugga doesn't get an extra attack is cheating. period.

EDIT: Back to the actual topic, a Grabba stick does not actually call itself a weapon at any point. It says that the model attacks normally (indicating, if anything, that this upgrade does not effect your attacks) But can cause a single model to lose an attack.

Aren't Grabba Stikks and Grot Prods 'special CCWs'? Which means they would never be able to benifit from a +1ccw attack unless it was a second of the same special weapon.

Just because a model equipped with a grabba stikk attacks like a normal model doesn't mean the weapon isn't a special ccw. Any weapon that gives an effect is special.

nkelsch wrote:Aren't Grabba Stikks and Grot Prods 'special CCWs'? Which means they would never be able to benifit from a +1ccw attack unless it was a second of the same special weapon.

You are wrong. Only certain Special Weapons have this Restriction.

Both of the questions can be answered by reading the codex or looking at the model (assuming WYSIWYG) Both the Grot prod and grabba stikk are held in 1 hand, and a squig in the other, he has a slugga on his waist and so when in CC he gains +1 attack.

WYSIWYG has Zero bearing on whether a Weapon is Two handed or not. When was the last time you saw a Nob Biker hold a Big Choppa (Stated in its rules as a 2 Handed Weapon) With both hands?

That's what I thought

Gwar! wrote:WYSIWYG has Zero bearing on whether a Weapon is Two handed or not. When was the last time you saw a Nob Biker hold a Big Choppa (Stated in its rules as a 2 Handed Weapon) With both hands?

That's what I thought

QFT
I would go that it's RAI as it only states which weapons are two handed buy there is no such thing in the new codices as a 1 handed weapon, only a normal close combat weapon and close combat weapons meaning that you should take RAI that this means you still get the bonus. This is at least how I and many players I know, play.





-Orkishly

This conversation seems to have turned toward 2h vs 1h, which is preposterous, it is by no means a 2h weapon. But I'm still not seeing where it actually says it's a CCW at all. It's listed in the weapon section of the wargear, but so is a CFF. I don't see people arguing over whether that's a 1 or 2 handed CCW.

Deffgob wrote:No, a basic CCW is one-handed. They always specify 2H weapons as such.

Please provide an actual rules quote to back up this position. You won't be able to. Nothing says that a weapon defaults to being single-handed. Nothing. In order to gain an extra +1 Attack in close combat the two weapons must be single-handed per the rules on page 37 and be one of the combinations that allow an extra +1 Attack as per page 42 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook.

Ghaz wrote:

Deffgob wrote:No, a basic CCW is one-handed. They always specify 2H weapons as such.

Please provide an actual rules quote to back up this position. You won't be able to. Nothing says that a weapon defaults to being single-handed. Nothing. In order to gain an extra +1 Attack in close combat the two weapons must be single-handed per the rules on page 37 and be one of the combinations that allow an extra +1 Attack as per page 42 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook.

You Always mention this. Are you asserting that a Model armed with a CCW and a Pistol does not receive the +1 Bonus attack as neither are SPECIFICALLY designated 1 handed weapons? Please, answer yes or no, because every time I ask this you tend to ignore me.

And if you do, why have you not used your influence at AB40k to get this error removed from the Datafiles?

And yet again, how many times must I repeat myself that how I play the game does not matter. Show me a rule that says all close combat weapons default to being single-handed if not specified. You want it to be true, so show us a rule that says it is. Seems to me that you can't so you keep trying to derail the discussion to avoid the point.

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, how many times must I repeat myself that how I play the game does not matter. Show me a rule that says all close combat weapons default to being single-handed if not specified. You want it to be true, so show us a rule that says it is. Seems to me that you can't so you keep trying to derail the discussion to avoid the point.

I feel it is a fair Question. Do you, in your games, refuse to allow a model armed with a Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon to have an Extra Attack?

Do you contend that this is RaW?
How do you explain every other reference in every other GW material of Pistols and CCW's Giving a Bonus attack?
How do you explain the restrictions on 2 handed weapons if other weapons are not considered to be 1 handed?

I noticed you avoided answering the question again. All I am asking for is a 1 word answer.

And does how a person plays the game change what's written in the rulebook? No, it does not. All you're doing is changing the subject because you know you can't answer a simple question that requires nothing more than a quote and a page reference. So no more excuses. Provide a rules quote and page reference to back up your position or we'll take your failure to do so as an admission that you're wrong and that there is no default number of hands it takes to use any weapon other than a pistol.

Ghaz wrote:Provide a rules quote and page reference to back up your position or we'll take your failure to do so as an admission that you're wrong and that there is no default number of hands it takes to use any weapon other than a pistol.

More false logic!
Do not forget the middleground, 'unprovable'. which like many such rules, is actualy where this question lays. However, Guar! does bring up a valid point in demonstrating the extent of such logic. If we take the assumption Ghaz is correct, then pistols are indeed unable to be used to generate a bonus attack (as well as many other things).

In the absence of eather being explicitly stated, we have no choice but to look at non-explicit evidence. In this case, items such as pistols all support the concusion that CCWs with unstated handedness are single handed.

Thank you Techpreist, glad to see someone actually answering for a change rather than pussyfooting around.

Still waiting for my answer Ghaz. Techpreist has already proven my point for me, so I would appreciate if you could finally answer my rather reasonable Questions, Please.

Is Runtherd weapons one or two handed? It is never listed as having any number of hands so how do you play this? It is not listed as being two handed there for it must be use-able with another CCW.

Why? because Pistols are listed as being CCW but its rare for a codex to list them as being 1 handed. For example the slugga is never listed as being 1 handed ether. Would you take sluggas over shootas, for you're boyz, if they didn't act as a second CCW?

Can believe people are fighting this it makes no sense. 100% behind Gwar on this.

Indeed. Pistols are not defined as 1 handed in the Rulebook Either, nor are Power Weapons or CCW.

Under Ghaz's logic 99% of models will not get a Bonus Attack, and the other 1% have two handed weapons, making the rules for Bonus Attacks utterly redundant.

P.S. Welcome to the Sig Muahahahaha

Ghaz wrote:And does how a person plays the game change what's written in the rulebook? No, it does not. All you're doing is changing the subject because you know you can't answer a simple question that requires nothing more than a quote and a page reference. So no more excuses. Provide a rules quote and page reference to back up your position or we'll take your failure to do so as an admission that you're wrong and that there is no default number of hands it takes to use any weapon other than a pistol.

Really man answer his question and dont talk for everyone, there is no we. I personally think your talking out your rear end, im sure others agree.

combo wrote:

Ghaz wrote:And does how a person plays the game change what's written in the rulebook? No, it does not. All you're doing is changing the subject because you know you can't answer a simple question that requires nothing more than a quote and a page reference. So no more excuses. Provide a rules quote and page reference to back up your position or we'll take your failure to do so as an admission that you're wrong and that there is no default number of hands it takes to use any weapon other than a pistol.

Really man answer his question and dont talk for everyone, there is no we. I personally think your talking out your rear end, im sure others agree.

YAY I'M POPULAR!

If everything in Warhammer was based on specific statements in the rulebook, we would never get past the first shooting phase.

"What cover save does that branch that half covers my body give me?

Gwar wins.

Gwar! wrote:Indeed. Pistols are not defined as 1 handed in the Rulebook Either, nor are Power Weapons or CCW.

Under Ghaz's logic 99% of models will not get a Bonus Attack, and the other 1% have two handed weapons, making the rules for Bonus Attacks utterly redundant.

P.S. Welcome to the Sig Muahahahaha

I guess shouldn't have add that ... Would it be to late to change it too "100% behind Gwar on this, which makes a change" ?

Yes, yes. We all know that Ghaz is wrong here. If he wished to stay ignorant, let him.

But really. I'm not trying to derail the thread or try to be TFG. I play orkz myself and have never counted grabba sticks as CCWs at all. The codex never calls it a weapon (unless you count that it's in the weapons section of wargear. but so is the CFF and stikkbombs) I've always played that the stick's only purpose is removing an attack from an enemy model, and has nothing to do with the runtherd's attacks.

Hey hey now, no need to get mean D:

As you can see I am always right

but sure I'll change it, cause you asked so nice

Gwar! wrote:the reverse means People with pistols and CCW don't get the bonus attacks, as Pistols are never stated as one handed.

P. 29, BRB:
"Pistol Weapons
Pistol weapons are light enough to be carried and fired one-handed"

Pretty explicit, if you ask me.