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of course. They are pretty WYSIWYG

big gun in center-check
machine gun- check
big bashy thing in right arm-check

Defiler:


soulgrinder:

Gwar! wrote:

Mars.Techpriest wrote:1) As proxy, sure, go ahead.

This, and only if I knew you well. If you pulled this at a random game I'd tell you to Go Buy a Soul grinder or not play. People wouldn't be happy me Proxying a Dreadnought as a Carnifex would they?

Respectfully, whats the issue Gwar? They are generally WYSIWYG. They literally have the same chassis.

I think its a personal preference thing. Some people really don't like the Defiler model but like the Unbound, and vice versa. AsPolnius noted, there has been a discussion about using soulgrinders as defilers. their physical parameters are nearly identical.

Exactly. Unless skkipper is on the other side tachin ur doodz, you should have nothing to worry about

I'd also rather get in a good competitive game against a few proxies than roll over my opponents painted garbage.
******
Agreed. Thats a complete aspect of the hobby utterly absent from this conversion. At a certain point, many people want to create or modify armies in their own image.

But thats neither here nor there. I'd strenuously object to anyone having the temerity to suggest an unbound Defiler is a "proxy" for a Bound Defiler.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:You are putting adherence to the rules over all other aspects of the hobby, and that's just weird, man.

No, I am saying that for the game to be enjoyable, you must stick to the rules. If we say "it's OK to break the rules in XYZ situation" where does it stop?

As soon as you can show me a rule they are breaking, I'd almost understand your argument.

Frankly Gwar, this an entire aspect of the hobby that you seem to not be participating in. Conversions of minis, troops, vehicles,, entire armies, were in place before most of the armies, lists etc. were even conceived. Indeed, GW fully supports this aspect of the hobby. I'd proffer people have been converting armies, with the full support of GW, before you were born. I'm not being sarcastic, but brutally serious.

The though that they are some how cheating belies:
*No concept of the time it takes to convert a piece, much less an army.
*No concept of the history of the game you are playing.
*No concept of the founders of the game you are playing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Belphegor wrote:So how, respectable trolle Gwar!, do you tell the difference between a person that prefers the aesthetic of the Defiler as opposed to the Soulgrinder.
Do you reserve your condemnation until they subject themselves to your gentle pre-game interrogations?
Or do you assume the worst, and silently brew in your annoyance giving them poor soft-scores?

No I tell them straight up "That is not a Soul Grinder, that is a Defiler. Why are you using an Incorrect model? Please remove the model and replace it with the correct one." If I am in a tournament and the TO has Cleared it, I'll shrug it off. After all, that Same TO can choose to ban Pink Models if he wants. In a Non Tournament Game I will just tell him to either get his army complete or not play at all.

The problem is, as you like to say, YOU ARE BREAKING THE RULES WHEN YOU SAY THAT (tee hee). Both are defilers. One is bound, one is unbound. By attempting to deny your opponent the use of that model you are cheating. Cheating Cheating Cheater who cheats! (I feel better about myself)



(Gwar do you have links to pics of this full DKOK army?)

When you played RT most models didn't exist.

You literally can't convert a model without viol,ating Gwar's incorrect rule.

Why? Its WYSYWG. There's no rule against it.

Its like saying a Forgeworld Dread thats WYSIWYG can't be used unless I do some sort of conversion to it.

Its like saying I can't use a generic tac marine as a Dark Angel Tacmarine.

Generic Speeder as a Space Wolf speeder.

Eldrad as a generic farseer.

Why he wants to do it is irrelevant. Under the Gwar standard it has to be exactly the correct mini from the corect codex.

A vanilla dreadnought is not a DA dreadnought. They are from different codexes so right out.

A tac marine is not the same as a DA tac marine. They are from different codexes so right out.

Likewise speeder.

See why the argument does not stand up to examination?

skkipper wrote:the question comes what does the soul grinder have that the defiler doesn't.

a cannon coming out of mouth? yep
multibarrel extra gun? yep
extra close combat weapon? yep
same size? yep
same shape? yep

it would be like telling an orc player that they can't use a landraider that has been converted into a battlewagon, because there is battlewagon model and the landraider isn't the same profile.

I am going to use them as soulgrinders. It sums it up nicely if I run into a Gwar type person and he refuse to play I am better off.

Even more than that (and keep U handz of my minis!)
It has the exact same chassis. Its really akin to the difference between a regular dread and a venerable dread with the same loadout. One looks cool, one looks like someone played "pimp my chassis."

Most importantly, in my mind, the SG is a creature with flesh, as is the carnifex. The Defiler is entirely metal, as is the dreadnought. After all, we're playing with toy soldiers, and part of the game is that they're meant to be WYSIWYG - this is even in the rulebook. A Defiler might share a few design components with a Soul Grinder, but it doesn't look like a Soul Grinder.

Let's look at some further comparisons:

The Soul Grinder and Defiler share the same base (4 common legs) The Dread and the Carnifex share the same base (60mm, round)
****More than that. It’s the SAME identical chassis. There is no difference. Its comparing a marine dread chassis to a marine dread chassis.

The SG and Defiler have several weapon options that could 'count as' the other's weapons. The Battle-cannon on a defiler could count-as a maw. The Autocannon on a defiler could count-as a Reaper cannon. In reality, they look nothing like these guns, but, counts-as.
****I’ll grant you that.

The Carnifex and Dreadnought also have several weapon options that could count-as the other's weapons. The Barbed Strangler can easily count-as an assault cannon, the Venom Cannon can count-as a multi-melta, and the Crab-claws can count as a DCCW.
***The difference of course is 1. same exact location between the two defilers whereas this false comparison does not have that; 2. They don’t look similar. 3. Both chaos, just like all both a vanilla and space wolf dreadnought are marine dreadnoughts.

Again, to show the visual similarities vs. the misbegotten nature fo the dread/nid comparison
Defiler /soulgrinder. Note same size, chassis, similar weapon systems

Defiler


Soulgrinder.


Carnifex and dreadnought. Whats the same again? Oh yes, the base.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/33598-Carnifex%2C%20Tyrinid%2C%20Snipefex.html

Redbeard wrote:

Polonius wrote:I, yet again, encourage a reflection on why the WYSIWYG rule exists to see if this causes any problem:
...
3) It does not diminish the aesthetics of the game. A well painted defiler looks just as chaotic as a soulgrinder, and does not clash like a carnifex/dreadnought proxy.

Well, that's certainly a matter of opinion. Mine is opposite - I believe that it does clash. Look at the rest of the daemon range. There's nothing boxy about any of it. I think the defiler most definitely does clash with the other daemons.

It's a good proxy, because it's the right size. But it's not part of the army, it doesn't fit. Aesthetically, a defiler doesn't work with the daemons.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that then redbeard. On the positive, i now have ideas on how to combine both with a model showing the soulgrinder "breaking out" of a defiler model. Very cool.