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I've been reviewing the Chaos Space Marines codex and was wondering, do they make a good horde army? With the ability to fill out a squad of CSM to 20 models and give them a mark (nurgle's or tzzentch's), they look to be quite capable of terrorizing other armies in assault, or camping objectives and plugging away at their opponents.

My other questions include...

What are the best heavy support selections in the codex?

I've been looking at the Obliterators and Defilers but I still (being a SM player) can't stop thinking about the vindicator (so good for so few points).

How are the HQ units in the codex used and what are the best options?

I am used to the SM HQs providing my armies support and abilities and the CSM HQs seem to be more hands on.

Well, Chaos Space Marines are too expensive to form a horde army.

The best HS choice are Obliterators. Vindicators come rather close, especially in a double lash list.

The best HQ choice is the Daemon Prince. Chaos Lords can be instantly killed and Sorcerers need to hide in a squad. Otherwise, they can be targeted. Sorcerers are not cc monsters. If you give a Sorcerer hiding in a squad the lash, the shooting has to resolved simultaneously, i.e., shooting and the lash. That's generally not what you want. You want to lash a unit and then to shoot it.

Still, for 5E you are better off running SoB or IG if you want a human horde. SoB can have more Marines and can be protected by Faith while IG are just a horde army anyway.

Your better off going Mech with Chaos. If you want, you could run a CSM Spam "Horde" by running a ton of Standard CSM in rhinos and for Heavy Support Havocs with quad meltas or flamers in rhinos work. Obliterators are very good... they do their job very well. Defilers are like a dreadnought with a battlecannon, I hate how easily my dreds get taken down :(, but you would have experience on this also probably. Their upside is Daemonic Possession.

For HQ its Daemon Princes all the way. He is not support, he is assault in every way shape and form. Give this guy Wings, MoN, and Warptime and hes tough to bring down and can get into CC very fast and start reaping up the kill count. The nice thing about him is, if the enemy focuses their Anti-Tank weapons at him (an immortal warrior) then your actual tanks go unhurt!

So having a squad of 20 chaos space marines with the mark of nurgle or tzzentch is just a waste of points? Are they too slow to be truely effective or just too costly?

I'm not a huge fan of mechanized lists. When I have tried to make them with my SMs they usually crumble quickly.

Also, if you hide a sorceror in a unit and give him the lash, that unit he is with is forced to fire upon the same unit he targets, correct?

To me, the lash itself seems tactically daunting. I'd constantly struggle with the choices concerning what to move and where. Plus, when an opponent gets moved around a few times, I imagine that the squad the sorceror is hiding in gets picked on pretty quickly, or no?

I liked the daemon prince and was leaning towards that HQ. Does the Daemon Prince work well in non-assault oriented armies, or does that build put him out on too thin of a limb?

A 20-man squad of CSMs with Icon of Nurgle will end up costing you about 350 points of footslogging that can get tied up in CC with just about anything.

A Lash Sorcerer is pretty decent in a Rhino by himself or with a small squad of guys in case the bus breaks, or with Wings by himself where he can maneuver at will. DPs have their upsides and downsides, Eternal Warrior and cost-effectiveness being ups and Death By Flashlight while Never Having Better than a 3+ Armor and lack of ranged attacks that aren't expensive and nullify-able psychic powers are downs. I typically field a DP with Wings, MoTz for the 4++ Invul against nasty plasma and melta weapons along with either a Terminator Lord with a Daemon Weapon or a Lash Sorcerer with Wings as a backup HQ.

And then what, Khestra?

You just run 10-man squads of the standard CSM for your scoring units? Do you bother outfitting the aspiring champion? Is there a reason to take plague marines or khorne beserkers?

The codex is so varied, I am overwhelemed with the amount options that exist.

Plauge marines are one of the most annoying units in the game for most armies, to kill since they have a higher toughness then standard marines, and they get feel no pain so you loose roughly 1/6 guys that take a wound from small arms fire,

as for Berserkers they kill just about anything on a charge but then sit there with their wangs in the wind in the subsequent shooting/ assault phase

Are Plague Marines worth the points though? You can buy CSM with a mark of Nurgle for a few points cheaper (same squad size, rhino, etc.) minus feel no pain.

Its minus FNP, fearless, blight grenades and the ability to take 2 specials at <10 models. Even with fewer models plague marines will usually outlast CSM without any trouble. It really does make a big difference. There isnt really any reason to take CSM over plague marines if you want a midrange unit for taking/holding objectives.

So a list that looked like this...

Daemon Prince
Wings

Plague Marines x 9
Plague Champion w/Power Fist
Plasmagun x 2
Rhino

Plague Marines x 9
Plague Champion w/Power Sword
Plasmagun x 2
Rhino

Plague Marines x 9
Plague Champion w/Melta Bombs
Plasmagun x 2
Rhino

Obliterators x 3

Defiler
Close Combat Arms x 4

Vindicator
Havoc Launcher

...would be a good starting point, or no?

StormHalo wrote:Daemon Prince
Wings

Add MoN and warp time

StormHalo wrote:Plague Marines x 9
Plague Champion w/Power Fist
Plasmagun x 2
Rhino

Run 7, that is plenty. Give these guys meltas and send them up front

StormHalo wrote:Plague Marines x 9
Plague Champion w/Power Sword
Plasmagun x 2
Rhino

Run 7, that is plenty. Fist or nothing but melta bombs - your low initiative makes a power weapon a weak fist

StormHalo wrote:Plague Marines x 9
Plague Champion w/Melta Bombs
Plasmagun x 2
Rhino

Run 7, that is plenty.

StormHalo wrote:Obliterators x 3

Perfect

StormHalo wrote:Defiler
Close Combat Arms x 4

nice

StormHalo wrote:Vindicator
Havoc Launcher

no havoc, add daemonic possession

I would choose between the vindy and defiler and run 2 of whichever you prefer.

when you're running a Defiler, choose how you're going to use it, and stick to it.

Either move and shoot the cannon until walking into an assault all game, or move and fleet into assaults all game. Pick one of those and stick to it, and do not change.

And as Inigo mentioned, a DP works best with a Mark and a psychic spell. A MoK DP would work for some cc, but a MoN with Warptime would be more efficient.

And as for the troops, 7 and 8 are the magic numbers for squads. Any more is just a waste of points that you could potentially buy another squad of 7 or 8 with. And Meltas > Plasma. They don't get hot, they're S8 AP1 as opposed to S7 AP2. They may have shorter range, but if you run into a tank spammer, you will be extremely relieved to know you have plenty of Meltas.

And in regards to your original question, CSM don't do Horde... Aside from spamming Lesser Daemons in troops, but that's not worth it at all if you want to maintain the best competitiveness.

StormHalo wrote:
The codex is so varied, I am overwhelemed with the amount options that exist.

ahhh hahahahahaha!

Haha. Ha.

Ohh, man.