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Ok, in a game last night, I was playing a "gentleman" from Germany, so maybe there was some language issue as well as the usual GW cloudiness of this rule, but this question came up.


I had a couple of Terminators in assault with Straken, and his command squad with 2 Bodyguards. In Straken's turn, he killed 1 Terminator, leaving me with 2. When my turn came, I did 2 wounds back, with the Thunderhammers.

At this point, there were 5 models, including Straken left in his unit. I assumed 2 models die, since I can't allocate to Straken, and I would win combat by 1.

This is where my opponent, informs me that, because of the above named rule, he can ALLOCATE one wound to Bodyguard A, and ALLOCATE one wound to Straken. Then, because of the rule, he can RESOLVE the allocated wound on Straken, on Bodyguard A. So, he loses 1 model, and we tie combat.


I will leave out the argument that followed, it did get a bit dicey here. But that just doesnt sound right to me. Anyone have any input on this?



Clay

It's only the caused wounds that matter in combat result. not the lost models

The gentleman had it right. You Allocate hits as normal, then roll to wound as normal. If the Commander is wounded, you instead resolve the wound against the bodyguard.

So he can put both wounds on 1 model, even though he has no save, and was instakilled?



Clay

No, he can allocate another wound on same model after all models have 1

Primarch wrote:So he can put both wounds on 1 model, even though he has no save, and was instakilled?



Clay

Yes. You get two hits, one on the Bodyguard one on the Commander. Roll to wound, both suffer a wound. Look Out Arrrgh! lets you resolve the wound that the Commander would suffer against the bodyguard, so the bodyguard suffers two wounds, can attempt his armour save (if he has one) and then dies if he has no wounds left.

Thunder555 wrote:No, he can allocate another wound on same model after all models have 1

Read the Look out Arrrgh! Rule, it lets you cause the Bodyguard to take both wounds.

If he has 2 bodyguards, wouldnt he have to resolve against the unwounded one? I mean, I know thats not what it says, but it just seems wierd, oh well.



Clay

It's a Veteran very skilled at the 'my face to your thunderhammer' techneque.

Gwar! wrote:Read the Look out Arrrgh! Rule, it lets you cause the Bodyguard to take both wounds.

Can't say i've heard about that rule before. New imperial guard rule?

It's a Veteran very skilled at the 'my face to your thunderhammer' techneque.

That must be it then....



Clay

Your opponent was correct. If a command squad with a bodyguard recieve two wounds both can be allocated against the same model via "Look Out - Arghh!".

RAW I don't think neither Straken nor Creed is Company Commanders so are not affected by "Look Out- Arghh!" though.

RAW is obviously not RAI in this case though as it would make Kell's bodyguard rule pointless.

Straken's entry says he replaces the Company Commander... so depends on how anal you are regarding whether he's still a company commander or not.

And Bodyguards don't take wounds from the squad... they can only "catch" wounds that would have been on the commander personally.

The rule is unclear (to me). Does it say bodyguards can take two wounds because that's all you can have (two max), or are they inferring that EACH BG can take two wounds thus letting you ignore 4 wounds off the Commander? I can't imagine actually having a sitution where you've got 4 wounds allocated to the CC, but you never know..

It's being said that each bodyguard can be alocated one wound in close combat, then, if a wound alocated to the commander successfuly wounds him, he may 'take' that wound and re-alocate it to himself.

Primarch wrote:If he has 2 bodyguards, wouldnt he have to resolve against the unwounded one? I mean, I know thats not what it says, but it just seems wierd, oh well.



Clay

You resolve it against any of the bodyguards. If they have the same equipment it wont make a difference.

It makes the difference of piling up to 3 wounds on 1 model, that only has 1 wound in his profile.....




Clay

Primarch wrote:It makes the difference of piling up to 3 wounds on 1 model, that only has 1 wound in his profile.....

So? Are you saying that once 1 wound has been allocated to a 1 wound model, it cant have any more allocated? What if I caused 11 Wounds on a Tactical Squad, would I only have to roll 10 saves because one model would have to save 2 wounds?

It doesn't make a difference. If you have 2 Guards with the same Wargear and a Commander left, you cause 8 hits, 3 on each guard and 2 on the commander, and 4 Wounds, 1 on each Guard and 2 on the commander. At That point Look out Arrgh! kicks in, and you resolve up to 2 wounds on the commander against the guards, meaning that you take 4 Armour saves for the guards and none for the commander. You fail 2 armour saves, both die, as per the complex unit rules.

Thats what im saying though. According to the way you are saying it works. In your example, he could take both Commander wounds, put them on 1 of the Guardsmen, and so that model takes 3 wounds, the Commander takes none, and the other Guardsmen takes 1.


What if you had the 3 guys left, and got hit by 3 Lascannons and a Bolter. You could put 1 Bolter on one Guardsmen, 2 of the 3 Lascannon hits on the Commander, and the 3rd on the 2nd Guardsman. Now, you take the 2 wounds from the Commander and put them on the 1 Guardsman who already has 1 Lascannon wound allocated to him. So now, the Commander takes nothing, 1 Guardsman takes 1 Bolter hit, and the other Guardsman takes 3 Lascannon wounds.


This may in fact be how it works, thats why I'm asking.



Clay

Primarch wrote:Thats what im saying though. According to the way you are saying it works. In your example, he could take both Commander wounds, put them on 1 of the Guardsmen, and so that model takes 3 wounds, the Commander takes none, and the other Guardsmen takes 1.


What if you had the 3 guys left, and got hit by 3 Lascannons and a Bolter. You could put 1 Bolter on one Guardsmen, 2 of the 3 Lascannon hits on the Commander, and the 3rd on the 2nd Guardsman. Now, you take the 2 wounds from the Commander and put them on the 1 Guardsman who already has 1 Lascannon wound allocated to him. So now, the Commander takes nothing, 1 Guardsman takes 1 Bolter hit, and the other Guardsman takes 3 Lascannon wounds.


This may in fact be how it works, thats why I'm asking.



Clay

Yes, that is exactly how it works.

Ok, since noone seems to have a dissenting opinion, works for me.



Clay

It is, in fact, the whole point of the special rule!

Dont get me wrong, I see where the rule makes no sense if you cant apply the wounds to the Bodyguards. I was questioning giving 2 to 1 BG, and none to the other. But if thats how it works, then so be it.



Clay

I think there is a small lack of communication. (Or I am misundertanding.)

In the original scenario. Straken can resolve his allocated wound on Bodyguard A. But that would cause BG A *and* BG B to die; since they have the same statline. (I don't think that was getting across in the examples.)



Also, the way I read the rule, you can 'shift' up to two wounds total; not two wounds per body guard.

coredump wrote:I think there is a small lack of communication. (Or I am misundertanding.)

In the original scenario. Straken can resolve his allocated wound on Bodyguard A. But that would cause BG A *and* BG B to die; since they have the same statline. (I don't think that was getting across in the examples.)



Also, the way I read the rule, you can 'shift' up to two wounds total; not two wounds per body guard.

Hmm, it seems it has the same problem as the Astropath now lol. Go Go GW!

Yeah, maybe I messed that part up. But that is what I was saying, why can he put 2 wounds on one Bodyguard, and none on the other in this scenario......


Clay

Primarch wrote:Yeah, maybe I messed that part up. But that is what I was saying, why can he put 2 wounds on one Bodyguard, and none on the other in this scenario......


Clay

Because the rules do not say you have to spread the re-allocated wounds, just that they have to go on a bodyguard.

But you don't have to spread them around. Like models roll saves in a group, and are equally effected.

So if there are two bodyguards, and one is allocated 2 wounds (one normal, and one from commander), if two saves are failed, then *both* bodyguards are removed.

Hi,
it's me, the german gentleman.

I am afraid that coredump is not right.

You have to discern to things: allocating and resolving.
First you allocate wounds:
One to Commander and one to a bodyguard.
Secondly, all saves will be made.
If the commander fails he normally suffers one wound.
The bodyguard fails as well.
Now the special rule of my bodyguard triggers. And I resolve both wounds against the bodyguard.

Resolving means that i remove every model that has one or more unsaved wounds allocated. I may select the same guard two times due to his own unsaved wound and the special rule.
That means he dies (twice?).

It's kind of like how the witch hunter acolyte works.
You can 'transfer' a wound from your Inquisitor to the acolyte BEFORE saves are made. The acolyte may then attempt his save. If he fails either he dies. But the inquisitor should be safe (unless there were so many wound that transferring one wasn't enough).

For combat res, it counts as to how many unsaved wound were inflicted. So if the acolyte failed both you would have lost the combat by 2 wounds becuase you count both of them. It's wounds cuased, not models taken, that is used in combat res.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. you should roll for each model seperately, instead of all together.

Maiden - did you have two identically equipped bodyguards?

Yes, i had 2 identically equipped bodyguards.