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hey guys. The Deamon hunters codex on page 20 says what are counted as deamons... does this mean my deamons army ignores rules like sanctuary for everything but nurglings?

frgsinwntr wrote:hey guys. The Deamon hunters codex on page 20 says what are counted as deamons... does this mean my deamons army ignores rules like sanctuary for everything but nurglings?

Yes.

For the number of times which this comes up, I'd like to suggest an alternative mechanism for settling the matter.

The Daemon player and the Daemon Hunter player both select a champion. The two chosen champions must then engage in an arm wrestling competition. The winner of the competition gets to decide what to use for the definition of 'daemon'.

Arguing over the rules of the arm wrestling competition is ensured to be more productive than any argument about what is and is not a daemon.

frgsinwntr wrote:hey guys. The Deamon hunters codex on page 20 says what are counted as deamons... does this mean my deamons army ignores rules like sanctuary for everything but nurglings?

If the nemesis forge weapen ignores eternal warrior then my answer is

HELL YES!!!

Damn sometimes I even have to go with the RAW.

frgsinwntr wrote:hey guys. The Deamon hunters codex on page 20 says what are counted as deamons... does this mean my deamons army ignores rules like sanctuary for everything but nurglings?

Probably not. The Daemon codex says they're Daemons, and page 24 of the Daemon Codex says Grey Knights are made to work against them.

gaylord500 wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:hey guys. The Deamon hunters codex on page 20 says what are counted as deamons... does this mean my deamons army ignores rules like sanctuary for everything but nurglings?

Probably not. The Daemon codex says they're Daemons, and page 24 of the Codex says Grey Knights are made to work against them.

So? Daemon is a specific term and defined as those listed

Much like how allies rules are not in the IG or SM codex, but their existence in the WH and DH codex allows IG or SM to ally with Inquisition units, the Daemons codex write something which allows the DH stuff to work against it that the DH codex does not itself mention. It seems to do this explicitly on page 24 of the Daemon's codex. So, the Daemon's codex seems to adds to the DH list of what counts as Daemons for the purposes of DH powers and abilities.

gaylord500 wrote:Much like how allies rules are not in the IG or SM codex, but their existence in the WH and DH codex allows IG or SM to ally with Inquisition units, the Daemons codex can allow the DH stuff to work against it. It seems to do this explicitly on page 24. So, the Daemon's codex seems to adds to the DH list of what counts as Daemons.

No, it doesn't. Any time Daemons is referred to in the DH codex, it refers to ONLY those things listed in the DH codex. Nothing Else.

And the Daemons codex refers to Grey Knight powers as working against Daemons, capital D. See page 24 of the Chaos Daemons codex. "[Grey Knights] are also highly trained in the ways in which Daemons can be banished back in the Warp, and to this end are armed with many bizarre weapons and items of wargear created solely for this purpose."

To argue that nearly nothing in the Daemons codex with the Daemons rule works with the DH equipment is to ignore RAW from the Daemon's codex. While the DH gives a list, it does not prevent the Daemon (or any other) codex from adding to it. The Daemons codex says its Daemons count for the purposes of Grey Knight weapons, wargear, and training.

So, it's clearly RAI that it works based off of that. It's not as red-letter, mechanistic RAW as many rules, but I think it is likely sufficiently clear.

gaylord500 wrote:And the Daemons codex refers to Grey Knight powers as working against Daemons, capital D. See page 24 of the Chaos Daemons codex. "[Grey Knights] are also highly trained in the ways in which Daemons can be banished back in the Warp, and to this end are armed with many bizarre weapons and items of wargear created solely for this purpose."

To argue that therefore nothing in the Daemons codex with the Daemons rule does not work with the DH equipment is to ignore RAW from the Daemon's codex. While the DH gives a list, it does not prevent the Daemon (or any other) codex from adding to it. The Daemons codex says its Daemons count for the purposes of Grey Knight weapons, wargear, and training.

Nowhere does the DH codex reference the Daemons Codex or anything else other than the list provided on Page 20. To say anything else counts as a Daemon is cheating, plain and simple.

RaI Can sleep with my sister for all I care. You play the Game by the rules. If you want to play Househammer, go ahead, I'll stick to Warhammer.

So where in the IG codex does it say that IG can take WH or DH allies?

It says it in the WH and DH codexes.

gaylord500 wrote:So where in the IG codex does it say that IG can take WH or DH allies?

It doesn't have to, the DH and WH codex say they may, just like the DH lists exactly what counts as a Daemon.

Similarly, it says in the Daemons codex that DH equipment works against Daemons. Just read the words; it's right there. While Codex > BRB, there's no Codex precedence here. DH is not > Chaos Daemons, necessarily. Where the specific terms are mentioned, you follow what it says. DH gives a list, Daemons says, "add us too".

DH doesn't say it does. However, Daemons says it does. RAI, ironclad; RAW, strong.

gaylord500 wrote:Similarly, it says in the Daemons codex that DH equipment works against Daemons. Just read the words; it's right there. While Codex > BRB, there's no Codex precedence here. DH is not > Chaos Daemons, necessarily. Where the specific terms are mentioned, you follow what it says. DH gives a list, Daemons says, "add us too".

DH doesn't say it does. However, Daemons says it does.

Codex: Space Wolves says all my Non Long Fang Non Vehicle Units have Counter Attack, can I let my Dark Angels have it?

Where in the Daemons Codex does it say "All Models in this army are to be added to page 20 of the Daemonhunters codex?" I'm looking at the Daemon Special Rule and all it mentions are Fearless, Invulnerable, Daemonic Assault and Daemonic Rivalry.

Face it, you are Wrong.

yea... i don't see in the RULES anywhere it mentions that Deamons from codex deamons are the same as listed in the the DH book... besides to say so would unbalance some powers such as sanctuary (written when in 3rd ed for VPs not objective based missions)

frgsinwntr wrote:yea... i don't see in the RULES anywhere it mentions that Deamons from codex deamons are the same as listed in the the DH book... besides to say so would unbalance some powers such as sanctuary (written when in 3rd ed for VPs not objective based missions)

Indeed. Anyone saying that it works is cheating. If GW were to issue an Errata to the DH codex, then it would work. Sadly GW are incompetent idiots so nothing that works against Daemons from the DH codex works against Non-Nurglings.

It's 100% RAW all the time or no RAW at all. Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:It's 100% RAW all the time or no RAW at all. Sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

G

A Saying I have never understood. What else would you want to do with Cake?

It is in reference to the late queen of France. When they told here the people were starving and had no bread to eat, she said feed them cake.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:It is in reference to the late queen of France. When they told here the people were starving and had no bread to eat, she said feed them cake.

G

A Perfectly reasonable suggestion.

Gwar! wrote:Where in the Daemons Codex does it say "All Models in this army are to be added to page 20 of the Daemonhunters codex?" I'm looking at the Daemon Special Rule and all it mentions are Fearless, Invulnerable, Daemonic Assault and Daemonic Rivalry.

I told you twice already. Page 24. And I quoted it as well.

It says, specifically, that Grey Knight equipment and wargear works against Daemon - capital D - not daemons in general. Which is what the Chaose Daemon codex is about.

gaylord500 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Where in the Daemons Codex does it say "All Models in this army are to be added to page 20 of the Daemonhunters codex?" I'm looking at the Daemon Special Rule and all it mentions are Fearless, Invulnerable, Daemonic Assault and Daemonic Rivalry.

I told you twice already. Page 24. And I quoted it as well.

It says, specifically, that Grey Knight equipment and wargear works against Daemon - capital D - not daemons in general. Which is what the Chaose Daemon codex is about.

Oh lol, You're quoting Fluff and trying to use it as rules?

Hahah! Thanks, I needed cheering up.

-Laughs Uncontrollably-

Fluff are not rules.

I have noticed Mr. Deadshane and sour clams have not chimed in yet to grace us with their opinions.

G

gaylord500 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Where in the Daemons Codex does it say "All Models in this army are to be added to page 20 of the Daemonhunters codex?" I'm looking at the Daemon Special Rule and all it mentions are Fearless, Invulnerable, Daemonic Assault and Daemonic Rivalry.

I told you twice already. Page 24. And I quoted it as well.

It says, specifically, that Grey Knight equipment and wargear works against Daemon - capital D - not daemons in general. Which is what the Chaose Daemon codex is about.

If fluff were rules, a single space marine could crush your army! OR on page 12 of the DH codex a psycher with hammer hand could cause me to roll on the catastrophic damage table for my baneblade by poking it.

frgsinwntr wrote:

gaylord500 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Where in the Daemons Codex does it say "All Models in this army are to be added to page 20 of the Daemonhunters codex?" I'm looking at the Daemon Special Rule and all it mentions are Fearless, Invulnerable, Daemonic Assault and Daemonic Rivalry.

I told you twice already. Page 24. And I quoted it as well.

It says, specifically, that Grey Knight equipment and wargear works against Daemon - capital D - not daemons in general. Which is what the Chaose Daemon codex is about.

If fluff were rules, a single space marine could crush your army!

If Fluff were rules, I'd just take an Inquisitor and "Nuke it from Orbit" on Turn 2 for an automatic Draw. Unless it was against Tyranids in which case it's an automatic win.

Gwar! wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:It is in reference to the late queen of France. When they told here the people were starving and had no bread to eat, she said feed them cake.

G

A Perfectly reasonable suggestion.

They cut off her pretty little head.

Mob rulez !

G

While I have to agree with Mr. Gwar mostly, there is a small part I must add in. The DH codex says in that list on page 20 that all greater demons are affected. And on the top of page 78 of the demon codex it says;
'These two pages list all the greater demons available to lead...'

That seems rather clear that they would fall under the blanket rule in the DH codex. But other than those and the poor Nurglings, it seems that Mr. Gwar is correct.

yes, greater deamons fall under that rule and so do nurglings. But not anything else as far as Raw goes

Green Blow Fly wrote:Fluff are not rules.

I have noticed Mr. Deadshane and sour clams have not chimed in yet to grace us with their opinions.

G

The Daemons referenced in C: Daemonhunters are specific units found within the codex. Much like the mutants found in the Witchhunter's codex, they're a self-contained strawman army meant to be just good enough to get some sucker to play in order for the Daemonhunters to kick their ass.

In other words, yes, there's some good to having a horribly outdated codex (Allies rules, Nemesis Force Weapons), but it's mostly overshadowed by all the negatives, including horribly useless wargear.

I have never lost to DH regardless of what list I am running.

* cups hands together *

Let me help you up on that high horse you ride. I have heard the air is thinner up there. If so that would explain a lot.



G