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Gwar! wrote:

AllWillFall2Me wrote:I don't exactly know what his Inquisitor is not an Inquisitor point was.

The point was that just because something shares a name between codex's you cannot claim they are the same.
gaylord500 was trying to claim that "Daemons have the Daemons special rule lawlz that means the DH codex means them", while frgsinwntr correctly pointed out that if you take an Inquisitor Lord from the DH Codex, you cannot try and take a Assassin from the Witch Hunters codex because they are not the same unit, despite having the same name. That means, just because Daemons share a simmilar sounding rule, it is NOT the same rule because the Daemonhunter codex does not specifically mention them.

Thank you. That is much more eloquent then I could have put it

Time for some cakey wakey and wacky tobaccie 2

so what do i do when I am playing with a guy who has daemons and I claim the force weapon is insta kill, he says its identical to instant death so it is the same, Should I claim all of my daemon rules then, (eg strikes at initiative 1 on the charge, ) or should i tell him to suck it as I insta kill his bloodthirster?

Grey Knight Luke wrote:so what do i do when I am playing with a guy who has daemons and I claim the force weapon is insta kill, he says its identical to instant death so it is the same, Should I claim all of my daemon rules then, (eg strikes at initiative 1 on the charge, ) or should i tell him to suck it as I insta kill his bloodthirster?

First you explain that you would prefer to play by the rules. You then ask him to read the rule out of your codex, showing that the Rules say it is not Instant Death. If he still will not relent, offer him the compromise of "If my NFW no longer 'Slay Outright', then in return I want all your Daemons to actually count as Daemons for any and all Effects my Grey Knights have."

If he refuses the compromise, tell him to suck it and play the RaW.

You instakill the thirster if it doesn't have the 2+ save thing.

Your force weapon is defined in your codex. It works differently then the BBB force weapon. Same thing with your:
smoke launchers
assault cannons
teleport homers
storm sheilds
... the list goes on

frgsinwntr wrote:You instakill the thirster if it doesn't have the 2+ save thing.

Your force weapon is defined in your codex. It works differently then the BBB force weapon. Same thing with your:
smoke launchers
assault cannons
teleport homers
storm sheilds
... the list goes on

Well, as you said, a "Nemesis Force Weapon" follows its own rules. Ergo, it is NOT a "Force Weapon" (As defined by the BRB), but a "Nemesis Force Weapon", so the Blessing of the Blood God will not provide the 2+ save against a NFW, because it only provides the 2+ save against wounds caused by "psychic powers or force weapons"

Yup, RAW only nurglings (and everything else mentioned) are daemons.
This'll be fixed when DH gets a codex update, or maybe get at least some errata.
But for now that's how you should play it, because that is how the codex was designed. It might end up being crazy overpowered if all models with the Daemons special rule were daemons under the DH codex, just be happy you get great advantages against those models mentioned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:You instakill the thirster if it doesn't have the 2+ save thing.

Your force weapon is defined in your codex. It works differently then the BBB force weapon. Same thing with your:
smoke launchers
assault cannons
teleport homers
storm sheilds
... the list goes on

Well, as you said, a "Nemesis Force Weapon" follows its own rules. Ergo, it is NOT a "Force Weapon" (As defined by the BRB), but a "Nemesis Force Weapon", so the Blessing of the Blood God will not provide the 2+ save against a NFW, because it only provides the 2+ save against wounds caused by "psychic powers or force weapons"

Thus proving once again that for every crazy disadvantage DH and WH have, they have something that is a great advantage.

Canonness Rory wrote:Thus proving once again that for every crazy disadvantage DH and WH have, they have something that is a great advantage.

QFT. As 3rd edition Codex's go, the Hunter Codex's are actually pretty powerful if you know how to use them.

ummm, if it's a deamon, shouldn't it count as a deamon?

Emperors Faithful wrote:ummm, if it's a deamon, shouldn't it count as a deamon?

Show me the rules that back that up. That's like me saying, it's a Space Marine, it should have 10's for all stats and a 0+ invulnerable save.

Emperors Faithful wrote:ummm, if it's a deamon, shouldn't it count as a deamon?

And all Eldar should count as Psykers. Game balance dictates otherwise.

combo wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:ummm, if it's a deamon, shouldn't it count as a deamon?

And all Eldar should count as Psykers. Game balance dictates otherwise.

Oh and All Tau should be Immune to Psychic Powers, because ya know they don't do the whole warp thing.

Again, Game Balance and the rules state otherwise.

Instant death is the same thing as killed outright from a RAI perspective. Just for some reason they worded it differently. Check the text for force weapons from other older codices as a reference.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Instant death is the same thing as killed outright from a RAI perspective. Just for some reason they worded it differently. Check the text for force weapons from other older codices as a reference.

G

Yes, but guess what, this isn't 3rd anymore. In 5th, Instant Death is a VERY specific rule, which the NFW does not inflict.

Also unless you are the author of the codex, do not even attempt to try and guess what the RaI is. For all we know this was all part of a GW master plan to allow NFW to kill 2 + wound Daemons where nothing else can, thus reinforcing the Grey Knights as an Anti Daemon Force.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Instant death is the same thing as killed outright from a RAI perspective. Just for some reason they worded it differently. Check the text for force weapons from other older codices as a reference.

G

this can be read the other way however.

"If GW wanted the NFW to stay the same as a regular Force Weapon they'd of kept the wording the same, or mentioned that the new force weapon rules includes all force weapons, including Nemisis ones."

Gwar! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:ummm, if it's a deamon, shouldn't it count as a deamon?

Show me the rules that back that up. That's like me saying, it's a Space Marine, it should have 10's for all stats and a 0+ invulnerable save.

no, that is like saying that 'all space marines benefit from X' and this line would affect DA, BA, Space wolves, BT and vanilla SM despite the codex of its origin. Which believe it or not is actually a common reading to a line such as this.

This can be a dumb conversation except for the fact that on page 20 the DH codex fully discloses what is meant by the term 'Daemons'. And RAW speaking here, most of what is listed in that paragraph no longer exist, and a good majority of the units in the daemon codex are *not* found in that paragraph.

Which is why pure RAW is a pretty dumb way to play the game. We can chock this one up with Banshee masks that RAI is pretty darn clear on this and virtually kicks RAW in the balls on this one.


And for all those RAW crazy players; the #1 rule, even greater than the know all see all RAW, is from page 2 of the RB: "The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important!"..."So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines"

padixon wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:ummm, if it's a deamon, shouldn't it count as a deamon?

Show me the rules that back that up. That's like me saying, it's a Space Marine, it should have 10's for all stats and a 0+ invulnerable save.

no, that is like saying that 'all space marines benefit from X' and this line would affect DA, BA, Space wolves, BT and vanilla SM despite the codex of its origin. Which believe it or not is actually a common reading to a line such as this.

This can be a dumb conversation except for the fact that on page 20 the DH codex fully discloses what is meant by the term 'Daemons'. And RAW speaking here, most of what is listed in that paragraph no longer exist, and a good majority of the units in the daemon codex are *not* found in that paragraph.

Which is why pure RAW is a pretty dumb way to play the game. We can chock this one up with Banshee masks that RAI is pretty darn clear on this and virtually kicks RAW in the balls on this one.


And for all those RAW crazy players; the #1 rule, even greater than the know all see all RAW, is from page 2 of the RB: "The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important!"..."So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines"

Stop quoting the page 2 rule first of all, Gwar has already highlighted the flaws of such an arguement so I wont bother.

Secondly lets take "And they shall know no fear" BT and DA will only get it if it is listed in there codex or directly says in their codex to refer to the rules in the space marine codex. They dont automatically get it because they are space marines.

Hence daemons arent automatically counted as being effected by Grey Hunters weaponry just because they are demons.

combo wrote:Stop quoting the page 2 rule first of all, Gwar has already highlighted the flaws of such an arguement so I wont bother.

Secondly lets take "And they shall know no fear" BT and DA will only get it if it is listed in there codex or directly says in their codex to refer to the rules in the space marine codex. They dont automatically get it because they are space marines.

Hence daemons arent automatically counted as being effected by Grey Hunters weaponry just because they are demons.

QFT. If we use Page 2 as a Crux, then the game just gets silly. If I am playing you, I quote page two and say "My Space Marines should have a rule saying they win on a 0+". You disagree and we rolloff for it, I win the rolloff and I win the game. If I lose the Roll off, I quote Page 2 Again saying you should auto Lose on a 0+ ETC ETC ETC ETC. Yes that is a silly case but it is EXACTLY the same as what people trying to Claim that Units from Codex: Chaos Daemons are affected by Grey Knight Stuff

Please, if you are going to post in a Forum that is solely for the discussion of how the rules work, don't try and use Page 2 or RaI.

Please, if you are going to post in a Forum that is solely for the discussion of how the rules work, don't try and use Page 2 or RaI.

Heh, is that what it's for? I thought it was Stelek's...I mean Gwar's...private playground. It's like throwing a ball of yarn to a cat. In a couple of more posts, someone will say "But isn't a demon a demon?" and then Gwar can yell they are cheaters and spend his time telling them why they are wrong. But I guess it keeps him off the streets.

mikhaila wrote:Please, if you are going to post in a Forum that is solely for the discussion of how the rules work, don't try and use Page 2 or RaI.

Heh, is that what it's for? I thought it was Stelek's...I mean Gwar's...private playground. It's like throwing a ball of yarn to a cat. In a couple of more posts, someone will say "But isn't a demon a demon?" and then Gwar can yell they are cheaters and spend his time telling them why they are wrong. But I guess it keeps him off the streets.

Someone already posted "But isn't a demon a demon?" and I told them that no it was not.

Oh and to do so is cheating .

You need to keep up with the times man!

Gwar! wrote:If we use Page 2 as a Crux, then the game just gets silly. If I am playing you, I quote page two and say "My Space Marines should have a rule saying they win on a 0+". You disagree and we rolloff for it, I win the rolloff and I win the game. If I lose the Roll off, I quote Page 2 Again saying you should auto Lose on a 0+ ETC ETC ETC ETC. Yes that is a silly case but it is EXACTLY the same as what people trying to Claim that Units from Codex: Chaos Daemons are affected by Grey Knight Stuff

Please, if you are going to post in a Forum that is solely for the discussion of how the rules work, don't try and use Page 2 or RaI.

As a point of order, Gwar!, I'd suggest you try and stay away from arguments like this, which are logical fallacies. IN fact, this is probably the best example of reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

AllWillFall2Me wrote:

Gwar! wrote:If we use Page 2 as a Crux, then the game just gets silly. If I am playing you, I quote page two and say "My Space Marines should have a rule saying they win on a 0+". You disagree and we rolloff for it, I win the rolloff and I win the game. If I lose the Roll off, I quote Page 2 Again saying you should auto Lose on a 0+ ETC ETC ETC ETC. Yes that is a silly case but it is EXACTLY the same as what people trying to Claim that Units from Codex: Chaos Daemons are affected by Grey Knight Stuff

Please, if you are going to post in a Forum that is solely for the discussion of how the rules work, don't try and use Page 2 or RaI.

As a point of order, Gwar!, I'd suggest you try and stay away from arguments like this, which are logical fallacies. IN fact, this is probably the best example of reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

Wait what's the best example? Using Fluff as Rules or me?

-Confused-

There already is a rulebook that tries for fluff, it's called Codex: Movie Marines and it's a disaster.
Fluff and rules are entirely different things, otherwise the game would get batspit crazy real quick.

Gwar! wrote:

AllWillFall2Me wrote:

Gwar! wrote:If we use Page 2 as a Crux, then the game just gets silly. If I am playing you, I quote page two and say "My Space Marines should have a rule saying they win on a 0+". You disagree and we rolloff for it, I win the rolloff and I win the game. If I lose the Roll off, I quote Page 2 Again saying you should auto Lose on a 0+ ETC ETC ETC ETC. Yes that is a silly case but it is EXACTLY the same as what people trying to Claim that Units from Codex: Chaos Daemons are affected by Grey Knight Stuff

Please, if you are going to post in a Forum that is solely for the discussion of how the rules work, don't try and use Page 2 or RaI.

As a point of order, Gwar!, I'd suggest you try and stay away from arguments like this, which are logical fallacies. IN fact, this is probably the best example of reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

Wait what's the best example? Using Fluff as Rules or me?

-Confused-

Using Fluff as Rules is a flawed and unbalanced state, but my comment was directed at you.

Reductio ad absurdum is a logical fallacy in which you derive a concept or proposition to the point where the argument is untenable because of (normally) hyperbole. Since no one in their right mind would utilize rule 2 in the way you describe it being abused, you have reduced the argument to absurdity, which does NOT defend your point, because it would be impossible to argue the other side.

Consider the example utilizing RAW reduced to absurdity. At multiple points in the rulebook, it states that if I am new, or lack sufficient models for a force, I may, in friendly games, utilize any models I have, even if from different codices. From this example, if I were to purchase only a few specific models, using RAW, I could argue that I may field an army with Abaddon(or Calgar, or Eldrad), Vendettas, and troops of ork boyz.

AllWillFall2Me wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

AllWillFall2Me wrote:

Gwar! wrote:If we use Page 2 as a Crux, then the game just gets silly. If I am playing you, I quote page two and say "My Space Marines should have a rule saying they win on a 0+". You disagree and we rolloff for it, I win the rolloff and I win the game. If I lose the Roll off, I quote Page 2 Again saying you should auto Lose on a 0+ ETC ETC ETC ETC. Yes that is a silly case but it is EXACTLY the same as what people trying to Claim that Units from Codex: Chaos Daemons are affected by Grey Knight Stuff

Please, if you are going to post in a Forum that is solely for the discussion of how the rules work, don't try and use Page 2 or RaI.

As a point of order, Gwar!, I'd suggest you try and stay away from arguments like this, which are logical fallacies. IN fact, this is probably the best example of reductio ad absurdum I've ever seen.

Wait what's the best example? Using Fluff as Rules or me?

-Confused-

Using Fluff as Rules is a flawed and unbalanced state, but my comment was directed at you.

Reductio ad absurdum is a logical fallacy in which you derive a concept or proposition to the point where the argument is untenable because of (normally) hyperbole. Since no one in their right mind would utilize rule 2 in the way you describe it being abused, you have reduced the argument to absurdity, which does NOT defend your point, because it would be impossible to argue the other side.

Consider the example utilizing RAW reduced to absurdity. At multiple points in the rulebook, it states that if I am new, or lack sufficient models for a force, I may, in friendly games, utilize any models I have, even if from different codices. From this example, if I were to purchase only a few specific models, using RAW, I could argue that I may field an army with Abaddon(or Calgar, or Eldrad), Vendettas, and troops of ork boyz.

Yes, but you must understand, that the mention of that is an exception, not the rule. The main Premise of the game is that you have a full, legal army and that you follow the rules as written in the rulebook.

Using page 2 in the way I describes is ridiculous, but it is exactly the same as what was being proposed, that is, to fundamentally alter the balance of the rules because you think it should be that way.

It is not exactly the same, because you are taking the stance to an extreme state, is what the fallacy (and I) are saying.

(Note before I continue: As a DH player, I am saddened that the definition of Daemon is exclusionary, but I accept it. That's not why I'm discussing this with you. I'm merely trying to point out what I've noticed is a fairly consistent flaw in your arguments.)

There is a vast difference between "Hey, my stuff works on Daemons, your things are called Daemons, can we agree these terms are identical?" to "Hey, I want to win, I have a very flimsy reason I should. Let me."

It's like if I asked my friend to loan me ten dollars, as opposed to mugging someone.

Utilizing rule 2 to agree that you can affect daemons with DH stuff is understandable, agreeable, and fits the setting.
On the other hand, Marines have lost battles, and wars, and while super-HUMAN, are known to fall. Trying to utilize rule 2 to win automatically is not agreeable, only by the slimmest margins understandable, and highly contestable in the fluff.

AllWillFall2Me wrote:Utilizing rule 2 to agree that you can affect daemons with DH stuff is understandable, agreeable, and fits the setting.
On the other hand, Marines have lost battles, and wars, and while super-HUMAN, are known to fall. Trying to utilize rule 2 to win automatically is not agreeable, only by the slimmest margins understandable, and highly contestable in the fluff.

In your opinion. In mine it is the opposite. Who are you to say my view is any less valid?

See, it is the same.

But surely you must adhere to the most important rule just as much as you should adhere to each and every other rule with all your heart. Who are we to pick and choose which rules we follow?

"If we use Page 2 as a Crux, then the game just gets silly."

As silly as Daemonhunters not affecting Daemons in the latest editions? Silliness is in the eye of the beholder. Those who live by the rules, die by the rules, and cannot ignore the rules just because they crack a hole below the waterline in their iron frigates of self-righteousness. Anything else is hypocritical!

Keyasa wrote:But surely you must adhere to the most important rule just as much as you should adhere to each and every other rule with all your heart. Who are we to pick and choose which rules we follow?

"If we use Page 2 as a Crux, then the game just gets silly."

As silly as Daemonhunters not affecting Daemons in the latest editions? Silliness is in the eye of the beholder. Those who live by the rules, die by the rules, and cannot ignore the rules just because they crack a hole below the waterline in their iron frigates of self-righteousness. Anything else is hypocritical!

Errrm, ok... how does one play by the rules if you use the rules to ignore the rules? It just becomes a Circular illogical nightmare.

I am not "picking and Choosing" what rules to use.

Keyasa wrote:But surely you must adhere to the most important rule just as much as you should adhere to each and every other rule with all your heart. Who are we to pick and choose which rules we follow?

"If we use Page 2 as a Crux, then the game just gets silly."

As silly as Daemonhunters not affecting Daemons in the latest editions? Silliness is in the eye of the beholder. Those who live by the rules, die by the rules, and cannot ignore the rules just because they crack a hole below the waterline in their iron frigates of self-righteousness. Anything else is hypocritical!

I honestly dont think its silly at all. from a game balance perspective I dont think its silly at all.