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So, time for another round of What ifs.

Who was really in contention for Warmaster? Both Dorn and Gulliman Really wanted it, and Horus himself said Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.
I think if Dorn or Gulliman had been warmaster, nothing would have changed, as each was just as Arrogant as Horus. If Sanguinius had been made Warmaster I think Logar would have been very Hard Pressed to find much support.

Rowboat Girlyman came closer to destroying the Imperium that Horus ever did, If he had been warmaster there would have been no heresy, everything would have crumpled from his incompetence.
Dorn was proud, yes, but he went kinda nuts after the heresy, which makes me think if Dorn had been Warmaster there wouldn't have been a heresy, or it would have been crushed before it started.
If Sanguinius had been Warmaster we wouldn't be playing warhammer 40k today, we'd be playing Imperiumhammer 40k, where everything is at peace because there are no heretics or xenos.

Hehe what if someone like Angron had become WarMaster.

We'd be playing deadhammer, were nothing is left alive.

Or if Fulgrim had become WarMaster?

If Russ became Warmaster we'd be playing MEADHAMMER 40K, a galactic scale bar brawl

YA MEADHAMMER were we all get drunk and fight over who pays!!!

I agree, Sanguinius should have been the freakin warmaster dang why didnt The Emperor just name him

Because Horus was the bigger arse-kisser

Because Horus was the only one who would uh... oblige the Emperor.

Hmmm. If Horus wasn't Warmaster...
Well, the only logical course is, that whoever the new Warmaster was, Chaos made a Heresy bid, whether or not they corrupted the Warmaster. The odds of success would drop, but they'd try and work something.
(Any other result leads to a thousand interpretations.)

Potential 'new' Warmasters:

Alpharius: One of the least likely results. I'm unsure of the timeline, so I don't know if Alpharius had been found by the time Horus was made Warmaster. however, should he have become Warmaster, things would have been highly different.

Alpharius had a high focus on subterfuge and intricacy. He was not a friend to many of the other Primarchs. Indeed, if he were to be Warmaster, Dorn might have fallen. However, recent novels tell us that he only turned to Chaos to defeat Chaos.

If Alpharius had been Warmaster, the Heresy would have been much quieter, if it did not fail. Alpharius would have had to sway his brother, as well as overcome the other primarchs' distaste for him. However, his skills in secrecy would have kept the Imperium in the dark until he was sitting on the throne.

Alpharius un-swayed/overcome: Eventual elimination of unwanted components, Imperium would endure, probably even grow, but much more by the shadows. 1984-esque.
Alpharius turned to Chaos: Likely to be highly determined. Chance of success higher, but afterward there would likely be another war, as the loyalists realize what's happened.

Leman Russ: Not so unlikely, as far as I'm aware, Russ only quarreled with Magnus. As Warmaster, his pride and impetuous nature would lead him to win greater and faster conquests, potentially straining the Imperium. Corrupting him to Chaos would be difficult, but possible. he would need to see that the empire was becoming something out of control, and that it needed to be stopped.

Bold tactics, regardless. Determined assaults.
Pre-Heresy: The Great Crusade would be strong where he was, very effective.
Heresy: Tricky. He's not known for his great tactical mind, or his planning. Would probably serve as figurehead, lead by Chaos. Would Magnus fall?

Heh. A Russ switch with Magnus would strengthen Khorne, but give the Imperium a greater acceptance of Psykers.
Chaos becomes more 'unthinking madmen', as opposed to the Imperium's knowledge. (Imperial Truth + Magnus as a Hero= Warp Studies)

Fulgrim: I'd put this guy on a 'likely' list. His army was named the Emperor's Children because he impressed the Emperor with his inspiring speech. It wouldn't be too hard for some good battles to have swayed the Emperor.

As Warmaster, Fulgrim would have had more resources, and the Emperor's Children would have been seen as the Elite of the Imperium. Odds are they would have become a psuedo- Custodes, or as advisors/inspiration to other legions. Fulgrim's quest, and his new rank, would have made him much harder to corrupt. I can actually see the Heresy requiring a lot more luck/effort if Fulgrim was Warmaster.

Assuming he didn't fall, however, the corruption of the other legions would have started a paranoia in Fulgrim. It's likely that within a few years of putting down the Heresy, he started purging the Imperium of the 'imperfect'.
Thus the Imperium of Man would have become a Brave New World in space scenario.

Gulliman: As Warmaster, Gulliman would have been highly like Horus in many respects. In fact, his major difference would be a distance from the Emperor. This would have interesting implications, as the HH books lead us to the idea that Horus's rejection and isolation from his father are one of the weak points attacked by Chaos. Without this weak point, Gulliman would have been harder to sway.

However, his arrogance might have led some of the other Primarchs to oppose him, making the Heresy all the more trying on the Loyalist forces. Further, this would probably cause some psychological conditions in Gulliman. (Everyone keeps BETRAYING him.)

I can see the resulting psychological damage leading to Gulliman locking the Emperor up "For His Safety". This would lead to a divide between the Space Marines and the growing Imperial Cult. Which would lead to hostilities, furthering Gulliman's paranoia, until somebody went for broke, and the Imperium fell on itself.

Dorn: Another likely candidate, but an odd one. Dorn was a defensive genius, and so would have probably spent his days in Terra, sending building fleets to newly discovered worlds, and having the more aggressive Primarchs do the actual Crusading.

When the Heresy came, he would have redoubled his defensive efforts, but with the Luna Wolves and World Eaters aided by the Iron Warriors, it would have been difficult. Odds are that triage would ahve been the name of the game, with Dorn heightening defenses until only a nigh-impenetrable few systems remained loyal. This would have become a cold war, with Dorn's patience and fortitude pitted against the Traitors. The Imperium would become a gilded Cage.

Corax: Unlikely. However, he was known for his quick tactics, and cunning mind. If the Primarchs were made to follow Corax, the Imperium would have handled enemy worlds very efficiently.
However, his dispute with Horus would probably have still led to Horus's corruption. Either that, or Corax would have started sabotaging the Imperium's forces in order for himself to profit.
If Warmaster Corax turned to Chaos, the Imperium would have had a very hard time, as he would have probably been at Terra before anyone knew there was a problem. In fact, the Heresy might have been successful, with the death of Corax shortly after. This would have shattered the heart of the Imperium, leading to a disintegration of Space Marine unity. The Legions would return to their home systems, and rule from there. The Primarchs would devolve into a bickering mass, and there'd be many different factions now.

I'll do the rest of the candidates later.

Horus quote from 'False Gods'

“Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...” -- The Warmaster Horus

Which makes you wonder why Sanguinius wasn't made Warmaster.

IMHO it was because the Emperor was returning to terra to be an emperor and administer his new empire, and needed a general, not another 'him', and Horus was the best general.

True, didnt see that(so blind lol Horus was a better general not being awesome in one specify area but kinda being good in all forms of war, The Luna Wolves I believe were kinda trained like Alpha Legion if im not mistaken but to a higher degree? So he would be the best choice for further expanding The Imperium, being good at assault, defense, diplomacy, admiralty,etc.

I wonder if Horus was meant to be the 'man' who finished the expansion, and Sanguinius set to be the Emperor's successor.

Why was Sanguinius back on terra? Jhagati was there as well and Rogal had a reason with terra being the Imperial Fists home world.

And what was to happen when the crusade finally came to an end, you have hordes of supermen who are bred and trained for nothing but war. I'm sure they wouldn't have wanted to be policemen.

And what was to happen when the crusade finally came to an end, you have hordes of supermen who are bred and trained for nothing but war. I'm sure they wouldn't have wanted to be policemen.

Probably what the Highlords of Terra did with that one Navy Captain... What the heck was his name... Where they sent him into darkspace on a crusade to discover worlds in other galaxies and conquer them for the glory of the Emperor.

Erebus stole the xenos weapon and then gave it to ??? to wound Horus. Once Horus was wounded, they did the healing ceremony which corrupted him. If Sanguinus had been Warmaster, the same fate might have fallen to him. While Horus went over to Chaos, he had some help on the way.

dietrich wrote:Erebus stole the xenos weapon and then gave it to ??? to wound Horus. Once Horus was wounded, they did the healing ceremony which corrupted him. If Sanguinus had been Warmaster, the same fate might have fallen to him. While Horus went over to Chaos, he had some help on the way.

If Sanguinus had been Warmaster, he wouldn't have been wounded

It's known that Sanguinus was by far a much much better fighter than Horus. I mean, think about it. He was able to keep Horus, Personally pumped up by 4 Chaos Gods, at bay for ages and even wound him (Created the chink in the armour that let the Big E BBQ him) and lost only because he had just spent the last few weeks casualy breaking Bloodthirsters over his knee, while Horus was on his Ship Drinking iced tea and scoffing French Pastries. Horus was just a much better Tactician and General, better than even Fairy Pants Gulliman. I think that was the major downfall. The Emperor was so blinded by Horus' success, he failed to take into account the psychological impact of such a rapid expansion of the Crusade. If Sanguinus had been at the reigns, it would have been slower, but a lot more sustainable.

combo wrote:


Or if Fulgrim had become WarMaster?

it'd be gayhammer 40k

'Fulgrim may take the Pink Hairbrush of Shooty Death for 50 pts. Once per game you may nominate a model in base contact with fulgrim. on a D6 roll of 4+ that model's hairstyle is now messed up'

It matters not who became Warmaster.

It's really Lorgar's fault in the first place, sending Erebus to mess up everything, create the warrior lodges, and become the voice in Horus' ear. Had Lorgar not turned, I'm sure we'd all be fine....despite THE GrimDarkness

Yeah perhaps if the Sisters of Silence or somebody reported the activities of Logar then Chaos would have been S out of luck for wreaking the Emperor's plans. Horus could have prevented The Imperium's demise if he had just not let his ambition turn him into a monster and let his heart be twisted by the dark gods, if he had instead let his heart be true to what he knew The Emperor's plans were then he would have knew that his supposed "friendly guide" was a liar. The things they showed him were of a reality he wanted to prevent but was in fact what he created with his treachery.

I'd note though that it wasn't just arragance that lead to Horus' corruption, it was also ambition. More then any of the other primarchs, Horus could not abide by falure, and had the drive to accomplish almost anything.

That, it's noted, is likely the reason why he was made warmaster over Sanguinius, Gilliman or Dorn. Horus was the only one the Emperior saw who had the ambition to fully conqure the galexy as the Emperor desired.

Its still possable that Horus would have been correpted even if he haden't been warmaster - it just would have proved more difficult, as he wouldn't have had the legal athority of pull off some of the tricks he did.

If he wasn't Warmaster the Chaos gods probably wouldnt have bothered with him, Lorgar was chosen because he was the easiest to corrupt (he was pretty much made corrupt, just needed focus). Magnus was manipulated to make him distrusted (and rightly so) so that no-one would believe him and so that he could play the (mis)guide to Horus whilst he was having his trip.

Magnus actually was loyal until the end. Of all the primarchs, I actually sympathise the most with Magnus, even though I am a Spess Puppeh.

Yes, he disobeyed the Emperor by continuing his research, but only because the Emperor refused to explain why he had forbidden it, because he felt the Primarchs could not handle the true nature of Chaos.

Yes, he used a bound daemon to warn the Emperor of Horus, inadvertently fething up the delicate Webway Portal under the Golden throne and nearly creating Eye of Terror 2.0. But he did it to warn the Emperor, who let his pride blind him.

Russ was tricked by Tzeentch via Horus. The Emperor just wanted him sent to the Terra to account for his Actions, but Horus convinced Russ to assault them. The Thousand Sons had no Idea, and Magnus had no Idea what was going on either, it was only when all hope was lost he cried out for aid from anything, and Tzeentch answered the Call.

Gwar! wrote:
when all hope was lost he cried out for aid from anything, and Tzeentch answered the Call.

QFT

Gwar! wrote:Yes, he disobeyed the Emperor by continuing his research, but only because the Emperor refused to explain why he had forbidden it, because he felt the Primarchs could not handle the true nature of Chaos.

Yes, he used a bound daemon to warn the Emperor of Horus, inadvertently fething up the delicate Webway Portal under the Golden throne and nearly creating Eye of Terror 2.0. But he did it to warn the Emperor, who let his pride blind him.

Magnus was lost to his own overweening ambition and pride, traits that the Emperor does not share. It's hard for us Wolves to understand sometimes, but you must bow to authority in a matter like this. You cannot expect to question every order. Or, in the case of the Emperor, any order. Magnus used seemingly noble goals as a pretext to do what he was forbidden to do. Chaos had already corrupted him and reduced his loyalty to a mere rationalization. Think how much more useful another legion of Marines would have been during the Heresy--far, far more useful than all of Magnus's bungled spells and attempted interventions. Pathetically, his disobedience amounted to little more than distracting Russ from Horus. What a high price to willingly pay for your own destruction.

Manchu wrote:Magnus was lost to his own overweening ambition and pride, traits that the Emperor does not share.

Oh yes, the Goal of Ruling the Galaxy in a Fascist Dictatorship, Invasion of the Webway and the Flippant dismissal of Horus' treachery because he was Daddies special little boy are certailnly not "overweening ambition and pride".

Obviously, the Emperor does not reign for his own good. You're suffering from the same delusions as Horus. As to his dismissal of Horus's treachery, who knows the ways of the Allfather? Why were the Primarchs scattered? Will you believe Chaos lies about that, too?

Gwar! wrote:If Sanguinus had been Warmaster, he wouldn't have been wounded

Well, then it just wouldn't be much of a story would it?

"And Erebus tried to stab Sanguinus in the back because he knew his only chance was to be an assassin. But, with his cat like reflexes, Sanguinus jumped out of the way and slew Erebus and placed the weapon in a statis containment field that was locked away forever. And due to Erebus' betrayal, Sanguinus enlisted Alpharius to spy upon the Word Bearers and ensure they were still loyal. Alpharius' agents learned that the might Word Bearer Legion had fallen to Chaos. With great reluctance, Sanguinus ordered the Word Bearers to be destroyed to a man. Realizing that Marines would struggle to fight their traitorous breathen, Sanguinus got most of the fleet in a lethal cross-fire and destroyed most of the Legion while embarked on their vessels. The straglers were rounded up and executed by the Space Wolves, who were the best trackers in the Imperium."

I mean, that's over in like 10 years. Then what do we have? No Grimdark! Without Grimdark, no game! The Emperor commands the whole galaxy under this thumb, and while it's an oppressive regime, it's not constant war either. Heck, they might even have a car in every garage and a chicken in every pot!

Like you, I think Magnus is one of the most tragic falls. He was loyal, but fell to Tzeentch for aid. While he got himself part of the way down that path by himself, the Assault on Prospero pushed him to the end. I think Mortarion is a similar tale of woe. While he willingly sided with Horus, it wasn't until Typhon's betrayal that they were changed to Plague Marines. Typhon slew all the navigators, which iirc, he said were still loyal to the Emperor but that 'he'd get them through', which stranded the Legion in the warp, then were infected with a terrible contagion, and called out for aid, only to have Nurgle happily answer.

Bid of a side topic. I'm reading the Space Wolf Omnibus, the third novel (Grey Hunter?). Ragnar is bringing up thoughts that were implanted by the learning machines. He's thinking about the navigators, and the novel mentions that only Navigators, the Emperor, and the Primarchs could successfully navigate the warp. I've never heard it mentioned that all the Primarchs could navigate (although, it's been speculated one of the missng primarchs might have been a navigator). Is that mentioned anywhere else? If it isn't, I'm inclined to write it off as 'black library author doesn't know the fluff as well as he thinks'.

The Emperor could Navigate, the Primarchs are made from the Emperors DNA

Of course, perhaps they couldn't and the Teaching Engine was wrong/corrupted/altered

I don't recall ever reading any other fluff that stated that all the Primarchs could navigate. I don't know of any other mentions that they could or couldn't. And the Emperor can do a lot of things that only some, or even none, of the Primarchs could do.

As I recall the story of the Death Guard, Typhon slew the navigators and told Mortarion that he (Typhon) could navigate. And then they got stuck in the warp and came out as plague marines. Which suggests to me that Mortarion couldn't navigate, or he would have gotten the fleet out of the warp.

Maybe the teaching machine was wrong, maybe the author didn't know the fluff, maybe a lot of things. I'm thinking the reference is wrong (either the author or the teaching machine), and will take that position unless someone else has a reference stating all the Primarchs could navigate. If they can navigate, they're all psykers. And while I think they all had some psychic ability, I don't think they all manifested that ability.

They all did have some Psychic ability. Some were just more latent or Subtle than others. Magnus was the most overtly Psychic, and Sanguinius was said to have the power of precognition (which makes him even more badass, fighting Horus KNOWING he couldn't win)

Russ had the psychic ability to detect mead?

Conrad Kurze was precognitive as well.

I can't think of any others with obvious psychic powers.