Lets do this again! What if Horus Wasn't made Warmaster...

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**Stygian Mole**

I believe Gwar! is not wrong. I seem to recall reading some fluff, though I cant recall where from, about the psychic ability of the primarchs. IIRC they could navigate, in theory, though with varying degrees of skill. This begs the question as to why Mortarion had to ask Typhus to guide the fleet to Terra after the Istvaan Massacre.
Thoughts?

**Gwar!**

Stygian Mole wrote:I believe Gwar! is not wrong. I seem to recall reading some fluff, though I cant recall where from, about the psychic ability of the primarchs. IIRC they could navigate, in theory, though with varying degrees of skill. This begs the question as to why Mortarion had to ask Typhus to guide the fleet to Terra after the Istvaan Massacre.
Thoughts?

Maybe because not every Primarch was good at it?

**Kogwar**

It depends who became warmaster but i think in most cases the haresy would have happend some how but it is a very conplexing case, again it all depends the amount of loyalty of the primarch Heck i think guiman would end up turning to, the chaos god would s=just offer him his perfect world he has always strived for.

**Demogerg**

dietrich wrote:Russ had the psychic ability to detect mead?

QFT

Russ was an alcoholic to the extreme.

I knew there was a reason I played Space Wolves.

**Lord Chiasson**

dietrich wrote:
Gwar! wrote:If Sanguinus had been Warmaster, he wouldn't have been wounded

Well, then it just wouldn't be much of a story would it?

"And Erebus tried to stab Sanguinus in the back because he knew his only chance was to be an assassin. But, with his cat like reflexes, Sanguinus jumped out of the way and slew Erebus and placed the weapon in a statis containment field that was locked away forever. And due to Erebus' betrayal, Sanguinus enlisted Alpharius to spy upon the Word Bearers and ensure they were still loyal. Alpharius' agents learned that the might Word Bearer Legion had fallen to Chaos. With great reluctance, Sanguinus ordered the Word Bearers to be destroyed to a man. Realizing that Marines would struggle to fight their traitorous breathen, Sanguinus got most of the fleet in a lethal cross-fire and destroyed most of the Legion while embarked on their vessels. The straglers were rounded up and executed by the Space Wolves, who were the best trackers in the Imperium."

I mean, that's over in like 10 years. Then what do we have? No Grimdark! Without Grimdark, no game! The Emperor commands the whole galaxy under this thumb, and while it's an oppressive regime, it's not constant war either. Heck, they might even have a car in every garage and a chicken in every pot!

Like you, I think Magnus is one of the most tragic falls. He was loyal, but fell to Tzeentch for aid. While he got himself part of the way down that path by himself, the Assault on Prospero pushed him to the end. I think Mortarion is a similar tale of woe. While he willingly sided with Horus, it wasn't until Typhon's betrayal that they were changed to Plague Marines. Typhon slew all the navigators, which iirc, he said were still loyal to the Emperor but that 'he'd get them through', which stranded the Legion in the warp, then were infected with a terrible contagion, and called out for aid, only to have Nurgle happily answer.

Bid of a side topic. I'm reading the Space Wolf Omnibus, the third novel (Grey Hunter?). Ragnar is bringing up thoughts that were implanted by the learning machines. He's thinking about the navigators, and the novel mentions that only Navigators, the Emperor, and the Primarchs could successfully navigate the warp. I've never heard it mentioned that all the Primarchs could navigate (although, it's been speculated one of the missng primarchs might have been a navigator). Is that mentioned anywhere else? If it isn't, I'm inclined to write it off as 'black library author doesn't know the fluff as well as he thinks'.

I have to disagree, it wouldn't have been an oppressive regime, the Emperor was far from a tyrant, its the High Lords in current 40k that made the Imperium oppressive and corrupt and religious. And it would have been grimdark, just grimdark for anyone who isnt Human

haha. But have to agree there would be no game it would have just been one big book series.

**Samus666**

Manchu wrote:Obviously, the Emperor does not reign for his own good.

I'm not altogether convinced of this, based on what I've read of the Horus Heresy literature so far. Total dominance of the galaxy and other dimensions seems like a strange goal for a benevolent altruistic and humble being. As a writer I always look at the subconcious motivations of characters, and am a bit cynical about the motivations of any very ambitious characters. Let's face it, anyone who aims to conquer the whole galaxy and ascend to godhood, even 'for the good of mankind' has a heck of an ego.

**Manchu**

Samus666 wrote:
Manchu wrote:Obviously, the Emperor does not reign for his own good.

I'm not altogether convinced of this, based on what I've read of the Horus Heresy literature so far. Total dominance of the galaxy and other dimensions seems like a strange goal for a benevolent altruistic and humble being. As a writer I always look at the subconcious motivations of characters, and am a bit cynical about the motivations of any very ambitious characters. Let's face it, anyone who aims to conquer the whole galaxy and ascend to godhood, even 'for the good of mankind' has a heck of an ego.

I think you're making the mistake of judging a fictional world by real-world morality. In the 40k universe, humanity can only ever be totally safe it is (1) dominant and then (2) the only surviving sentience. I'm not sure what you mean by "ascend to godhood." Like Gwar!, it seems like you are only "cynical" inasmuch as you uncritically accept the Chaos powers' account to Horus of the Emperor's motives and methods.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Manchu wrote:

I think you're making the mistake of judging a fictional world by real-world morality. In the 40k universe, humanity can only ever be totally safe it is (1) dominant and then (2) the only surviving sentience. I'm not sure what you mean by "ascend to godhood." Like Gwar!, it seems like you are only "cynical" inasmuch as you uncritically accept the Chaos powers' account to Horus of the Emperor's motives and methods.

The fictional world's morality is commonly based of the real world's morality.

Also you seem to attack those the question the Emperor, like a Zealot would the questioning of the bible, only taking the evidence from one side. Gwar and Samus666 apear to be basing their opinions off of what both sides of the fluff seem to point to the Emperor being power hungry to the point of claiming everything he does is for the sake of humanity. He claims to want to usher in a new era of enlightenment upon mankind yet deliberately keeps them in the dark about the greatest threat to their survival.

**Manchu**

BrotherStynier wrote:Also you seem to attack those the question the Emperor, like a Zealot would the questioning of the bible, only taking the evidence from one side. Gwar and Samus666 apear to be basing their opinions off of what both sides of the fluff seem to point to the Emperor being power hungry to the point of claiming everything he does is for the sake of humanity. He claims to want to usher in a new era of enlightenment upon mankind yet deliberately keeps them in the dark about the greatest threat to their survival.

By all means, cite non-Chaos source in the fluff that suggests self-aggrandizement to be the Emperor's motive or goal.

But while searching in vain, consider the following:

This isn't about zealotry. Warhammer is just a game. Unlike real life, its morality is very black and white. It has good guys and bad guys. Most of the good guys tend to act in ways that we would call bad IRL--I'm especially thinking of inquisitors here. Doesn't make it bad in the game world. Even so, the Emperor is one character that is unequivocally good. Why so many posters here are eager to paint Horus as humble and concerned for others while claiming that the Emperor is a tyrant is pretty simple. People have a basic fascination with evil that produces a sort of cognitive dissonance: the bad guys are awesome but I shouldn't like them. To resolve this seeming paradox they come up with all sorts of rationalizations for the characters' behavior. Some totally forget that what they charge the good guys with is the most glaring characteristic of the bad guys. Others emphasize that the good guys and bad guys are basically the same. They call themselves cynics or realists.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

The Horus Heresy Short Story the last Church, shows the Emperor in a less than noble light at times. Heck even some of the stories where he is shown as "Good" it has its shades of grey leading the people to believe that he may be doing the things he does for more than the good of humanity.

Yes 40k is a game, yet at times your defense of the Emperor seems like you take it too seriously, as could my defense of Horus in a previous thread. But to claim that there is only Black and white in this game is a bit absurd. Many of the things written are told solely from the perspective of the Imperium of Man, who would view the Tau, and Eldar as evil. Even Chaos can have its shades of grey to it. Its all perspective, from Gwars POV Magnus was an innocent victim of the Emperor's policy of keeping Humanity in the dark, while to you he was overly ambitious.

Its all point of view and interpretation in 40k.

**Manchu**

Who can ultimately say they have the absolutely correct answer? Not me.

I happen to think that the Emperor is, unlike many of his followers, an actual and sincere good guy. (I'm not sure what you're referring to in the Last Church story, either.) I also happen to think (backed up by a lot of reading over the years) that there are no official sources that contradict this point. You can say that Magnus just wanted to warn everyone. That's certainly what Magnus said. But the real twist to Magnus story is that he couldn't even help himself. Not because he was powerless. His defiance of the Emperor meant that he was quite powerful indeed. He could not save himself because he did not want to be saved. That's why he defied the Emperor in the first place. And that is why it was so easy for Horus to betray and ruin him. This is, perhaps, "just my POV" but I have not heard anything sufficiently well argued to make me think otherwise. All I ever hear is "well, the Emperor is just doing it for his own sake," which is EXACTLY what Horus allowed himself to believe just so that he could betray his father. It's a lie spun out to rationalize an ambition that was too great for poor Horus.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

In the end only GW everything else is just for us to speculate.

I don't get that opinion of him, I find it hard to believe that someone who would eradicate entire species simply because they aren't human or he feels they aren't worth keeping alive. Humanity doesn't need the entire galaxy to itself, there's lots of room to share, only the most hostile would truly need to be eliminated. There had to have been more motivation than, I must claim the Galaxy for humanity.

Magnus' thirst for power is ultimately no different from any of the other Primarchs that wanted it, nor the Emperor's thirst. The difference it seems is that he wanted to try and use what he found to help, but in doing so left himself open for manipulation by Horus.

**Manchu**

Actually, one of the things that makes 40k so different from other sci-fi franchises is that humanity cannot co-exist with aliens. "Us or them" is not just an attitude but a fact of life.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Its not like that for any reason other than GrimDark, and refusal to give in on certain beliefs. Which I guess isn't that far off from how humanity works today.

**Manchu**

Actually, none of the playable races could co-exist peacefully with humanity anyway. Orks want to fight them. Tyranids want to eat them. Tau want to "incorporate" (read: enslave) them. Eldar want to toy with them (or at least see them as nothing more than instruments of Eldar goals). Dark Eldar want to torture them, etc, etc.

Also, GrimDark = 40k.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Well if we are going of of just the playable races then you win.

All hail the GrimDark!

**Lord Chiasson**

Awesome points from both of yall, have to go with Magnus on most of it tho, I mean the only reason that you think that a man who wants to conquer the entire galaxy for humanity would be evil is cause by today's history and standards conquering your neighbor is evil, even if you are there to try in give them better standards of living, opportunity, etc. Its basically forcing your will on another, even if your intentions are good. The Emperor IMO was saving humanity from the Warp(i.e finding psyhers, saving humans them from slavery of alien races,etc.) and of course if your a conqueror and trying to good for the majority, theres always goin be that few you have to be harsh on which The Emperor knew he had to do so he could continue to save his race if it meant he had to kill some people thinking about rebllion so be it.

And why ally with another race when they had enslaved and killed your ancestors? Humanity can barely trust themselves what makes you think they would trust a comptley different race that had been enslavin them and killing them?

**Scott-S6**

On the other hand, if he only wanted to protect humanity from the warp then why the massive expansion of the empire?

With the human race distributed over a much smaller area of space then safeguarding it would be that much easier.

The huge push to make the Imperium fill the whole galaxy suggests motives that may be a little murkier.

**ertle**

Scott-S6 wrote:On the other hand, if he only wanted to protect humanity from the warp then why the massive expansion of the empire?

With the human race distributed over a much smaller area of space then safeguarding it would be that much easier.

The huge push to make the Imperium fill the whole galaxy suggests motives that may be a little murkier.

The point of the Great Crusade was to reunite humanity after the centuries of isolation and to eliminate religion.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

ertle wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:On the other hand, if he only wanted to protect humanity from the warp then why the massive expansion of the empire?

With the human race distributed over a much smaller area of space then safeguarding it would be that much easier.

The huge push to make the Imperium fill the whole galaxy suggests motives that may be a little murkier.

The point of the Great Crusade was to reunite humanity after the centuries of isolation and to eliminate religion.

And Drive the foul Xenos from the galaxy, while conquering it.

**Lord Chiasson**

Having them in a small area of space would leave the Human race more vulnerable to extinction in such a small area as there not a technology advance as the eldar who can run away in such in there craftworlds. The Emperor's main goal was to colonize an abandon web way but freakin Magnus and Horus with his heresy screwed that up. He was just trying to spread them out so the loss of one world would not doom the race, and its seems to have worked i mean the Tryaind hive fleet wipe out systems at a time imagine if the Emperor had just stayed in a small area of space

**daedalus-templarius**

I think the Emperor merely looked at things through the lens of 'what do I have to do to ensure my species can survive and flourish'. If that meant wiping out xeno culture after xeno culture, he was going to do it.

The Emperor is a 'good guy' to humanity, because he guarantees their survival. Other cultures might not think he is so great. From The Last Church, you can see he is a tremendously driven individual, anything that stands in his way is merely a speed bump to his ultimate goals.

**Kogwar**

daedalus-templarius wrote:I think the Emperor merely looked at things through the lens of 'what do I have to do to ensure my species can survive and flourish'. If that meant wiping out xeno culture after xeno culture, he was going to do it.

The Emperor is a 'good guy' to humanity, because he guarantees their survival. Other cultures might not think he is so great. From The Last Church, you can see he is a tremendously driven individual, anything that stands in his way is merely a speed bump to his ultimate goals.

That last part kinds sounds like MAnfred or Nagash

**Lord Chiasson**

I agree with Templarius, he is Humanity's good guy and a really driven individual. I mean if you were the most powerful being in the matrial universe and the reason you were made was to save your race and the only way you could do it was threw this plan you had made your not gonna let little ol joe smo wreak everything just cause he is putting up some resistance and possibly destroying everything you built are you?

**rubiksnoob**

If Fulgrim was Warmaster we would be playing OCDperfectionhammer, and that would not be much fun.