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I keep seeing this around when people comment on Tau tactics or Army lists. How do you guys use a suit equiped with a plasma rifle and missle pod. They don't seem to work togeather very well, one generaly wants to be firing plasma at heavy infantry like MEQ or Termies, where a misslepod is almost ineffective because of its low AP & moderate rate of fire. The Missle pod generaly should be fired at light vehicles, where the plasma's short range and str6 make it fairly ineffective. So, why do people use this loadout?

I think it has something to do with volume of shots I dunno; I always used twinlinked missile pod and target array so as to always hit and its cheap.

I used to run 1 deathrain and 1 fireknife squad.
My deathrains almost always made their points back. I wouldn't trade them for anything.

My fireknives rarely made their points back, but they always did their job, and more than once they won me games. (nothing better for anti-terminator)

Deathrains are anti-transport duties. Stop Rhinos, Chimeras, and anything AV12 or less before it becomes a problem. This is essential in a Tau army, where Railguns would be overkill.

Fireknives are unique in their use. For the first turn or two they should be used as anti-transport like deathrains, but... well.... some armies have "counter-assault" units.

Tau have Fireknives.
2 plasma shots, 2 missile pod shots.
6 of each in a full squad (+ commander if he's a FK too)
and.... MATHHAMMER TIME!
6 Plasma shots at BS3
3 plasma hits
2.5 wounds.
5+ invuln save.
2 dead termies. That's a Ld test if they came in a land raider.
Not very impressive.
Markerlight time.
6 Plasma shots at BS5
5 hits.
4-5 wounds.
3-4 dead termies.
That's almost all of a Land Raider Squad. And that's before MPs (which are negligible, you'll probably get 1 dead if you're lucky)
120-160 points left, if you markerlight them with 2 markerlights before shooting.
Against MEQs, it's 4-5 dead, then 1-2 dead from the MPs.

Worth it IMO

A good combination of range, strength and AP makes the Fireknife my preffered choice.
High volume firepower (anti horde) is delivered by other parts of my army.

Ive yet to see the refuted proof that 3 XV88 with BS 4 and twinlinked Missilepod are not more efficient in cost and use.

6 hits pretty much every time and you usually have a 1 in six of not wounding anything under a toughness of 6.

Oh and it has a ungodly range and ability to fire then move.


Yeah um whatevers.

That very much depends on how you define "efficient".
At killing transports? Sure.
At killing MEQ? Maybe.
At killing Terminators? Not so much.

There were several threads back in the days of the release of the codex with all the mathhammer you could eat. Sure, the increased weight placed on transports (mech) has increased the value of the Deathrains, just not enough IMO.

Simmilar to Holismason, I'd like to know why you don't find Plasma-fusion more efficent for killing MEQ/TEQ.

are 2 Fireknives better then 1 deathrain & 1 Plas-Fusion? (when the second pair is slightly cheaper)

Range.

In order to use plasma effectivly, you have to be within 12" anyway. At ranges over 12" (and particularly over 24") Deathrain will grant more hits then Fireknife. It seems that no mater how it's being used, it's not being optimized.

I just find the Missilepod suits if I do use them more useful. I played some games with Fireknifes and go spanked as they eat up so many points.

Oh and they just do not work well against Mechanized the STR 6 its just not enough.

I just am curious as to why EVERYONE seems to use a fireknife.

Hollismason wrote:I just find the Missilepod suits if I do use them more useful. I played some games with Fireknifes and go spanked as they eat up so many points.

Oh and they just do not work well against Mechanized the STR 6 its just not enough.

I just am curious as to why EVERYONE seems to use a fireknife.

Anti-Terminator.
S6 is enough to wound them on 2's, good enough for me.
Do you want to wound them on 1's? Go play apocalypse.

Yeah but STR6 can only glance Vehicles and with the game swinging toward Mechanized winning out most of the times; then yes. Also the majority of lists that do have terminators have Terminators w/ Lightning Claws and Stormshields which they get a save from.

Lets look at the numbers

3 Deathrain (TL Missile Pod, Targeting Array) 159 points
3 Fireknife (Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multitracker) 186 points

Straight away the advantage goes to the Deathrain. A lower points value allows more goodie for our vehicles.

At a range of more than 24" the Deathrain is naturally exceedingly superior. While the increased range in an important point, JSJ extends the range of the Fireknife to such an degree that it doesn't becomes to much of a problem IMO.


Looking at vehicles. The numbers in parentheses (sp) show when the Plasma Rifle rapidfires. This is not the optimum situation and not the numbers we will base our comparison on. Having said that, the numbers cannot be completely ignored either.

AV 10

DR generates 0,88 glancing and 2,66 penetrating hits.
FK generates 0,75 glancing and 2,00 penetrating hits. (1 glancing and 2,5 penetrating)

AV 11

DR generates 0,88 glancing and 1,77 penetrating.
FK generates 0,75 glancing and 1,25 penetrating. (1 glancing and 1,5 penetrating)

AV 12

DR generates 0,88 glancing and 0,88 penetrating.
FK generates 0.75 glancing and 0,50 penetrating. (1 glancing and 0,5 penetrating)

AV 13 and 14 should be handled by our Railguns. Naturally Fireknifes are very inferior at AV 13, but Deathrains aren't to good at AV 13 either.
Deathrain are indeed better at handeling transports.


Lets shoot some guys.

GEQ/Orks

DR kills 4,44.
FK kills 3,75. (5)

MEQ

DR kills 1,48.
FK kills 2,08. (3,33)

LC Terminators

DR kills 0,75
FK kills 1,24 (2,07)

TH/SS Terminators

DR kills 0,75
FK kills 0,82 (1,24)

The Fireknife draws slightly ahead. Again the numbers increases if rapid fire is an option. This isn't the numbers we are going to use, but cannot be ignored either.


Don't get me wrong. The Deathrain is fine configuration, I just prefer the increased infantry killing of the Fireknife and leave the vehicle-stopping to railguns.
Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the increased mechanisation is in the Deathrains favor. Personally I don't think the pendulum has swung far enough to use the DR over the FK though.
If Firewarriors or Kroots could get special or heavy weapons, I too would pick Deathrains. But as things stand we cannot get the plasma fire anywhere else. Fireknife it is, for me anyway.

I thought it was recommended not to give a suit both missiles and plasma as they're for different roles and it would be best to use one or the other. If you want to use both, just give them to another suit in another squad. Becuase if you use the missiles right you're not going to be using the plasma at all and that's a hard point that could be used for something better instead. That's mostly from the tactics articles I've been reading.

As you can see the PR and the MP can indeed share roles.

Alright then. I think the tactics I was reading might have classed them as two seperate things with the missiles as anti vehicles and the plasma as anti heavy infantry/MEQ(iirc). But I can see how they do share similar roles.

Both layouts are viable as Steelmage99 has pointed out. I would say it depends on who you are playing.

If you know your fighting orks, the plasma is probably not needed, as misslepods do the work. But if your unsure if your opponent will be bringing out his orks or his CSM...different story. When I go to my FLGS to play I always point out for a squad of FK as I have no idea what I will be facing (I don't switch my army before the games most times).

FK may be expensive but then again so are alot of tau things currently.

MP-PR-MT is a nice combo for dealing with MEQs and light vehicles.

Instead of TL MP-TA, I prefer TL MP and Flamer. While you get a few less MP hits due to BS 3 vs 4, the Flamer is only 4 points and can easily make that back.

One other thing to keep in mind is that the AP2 of plasma denies Feel No Pain saves.

I still haven't seen anyone adress the Plas-Fuison.

Compared to a Fireknife, Plas-fusion is better able to deal with MEQs, and much better at 2+ armor. Mathhammered out for a 3 suit squad, The fusion gun takes out ~1.25 MEQs to ~.75 the missle pod is able to deal with. Against 2+ armor, it's an even more disparet 1.25 vs. 0.375.

I'm not sure why you think being in rapid fire range is non-ideal. If your only making one plasma shot a round, your losing 1/2 your firepower. With JSJ, you can still get out of assault range of most units even after firing from within 12.

I don't use fireknives.

My army lists (depending on if I'm doing a Farsight bomb or not) have two teams of suits.

1. Deathrain team with twin-linked missile pods. I don't take targeting arrays with them simply because there are few misses to be had with twin linked BS3.

2. Plasma/Fusion combo. These *do* deserve a targeting array, but the mult-tracker vs. targeting array (and wargear) really depend on your army structure. Bodyguards are 10 points more expensive for little return in terms of statline, but I'll say this: A Shas'o or Shas'el with 2 bodyguards, all three with fusion/plasma combos, targeting arrays where relevant, multi-trackers, and a smattering of shield drones (toss in Iridium armor and a stimpack somewhere) and you've got a unit that can annihilate anything while being literally impossible to crack.

At 12", that's six STR6 AP2 shots and 3 STR8 AP1 shots....they do serious damage to MEQs, terminators, Nidzillas, or anything else really.

That's one of the unsung truths about the Tau army: the power of its short-range shooting. I figured it out after playing a bunch of games against Ork horde armies, when I realized I killed 3-4 times as many orks up close as I did at range (the multiplier may be an exaggeration, but it seemed that way). Tau really needs that close-range shooting to be effective in order to maul close-combat armies, but it can also be useful for kiting other shooty armies as well.

Dashofpepper wrote:

My army lists (depending on if I'm doing a Farsight bomb or not)

Can i ask what this is? Farsight kind of interests me and i have some ideas for him but i'm wondering how real players use him (as i want to use his body guard with TL flamers just cause i think it will be fun but i'd like to know how you use him and actually win )

Mars.Techpriest wrote:I still haven't seen anyone adress the Plas-Fuison.

Sure I did. Range.

I'm not sure why you think being in rapid fire range is non-ideal. If your only making one plasma shot a round, your losing 1/2 your firepower. With JSJ, you can still get out of assault range of most units even after firing from within 12.

Oh I would prefer to be in rapid fire range all the time. I just also prefer to be out of charge range of those angry guys getting out of the transport I just popped. I feel FKs gives me just that flexibility.

"Range" isn't exactly a descriptive answer.

If you jump back after firing, your between 13 and 18" away from your opponent. Which means only Fleet or jump troops can reach you, even if you don't put difficult terrain between yourself and them. Even if they do get cornered and assaulted on turn 4, you've already done more damage with them then 6 turns outside of RF range.

Personaly, I don't think you can do enough damage to justify the cost of a plasma suit without getting within rapid fire range. 12 marines a game isn't much for a 186pt squad. Even the 18 from a rapid fire FK seems like a reasonable level. But that's assuming you take no damage.

VoxDei wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

My army lists (depending on if I'm doing a Farsight bomb or not)

Can i ask what this is? Farsight kind of interests me and i have some ideas for him but i'm wondering how real players use him (as i want to use his body guard with TL flamers just cause i think it will be fun but i'd like to know how you use him and actually win )

I've actually never lost a game where I used a Farsight bomb, but its expensive.

Basically, you take Farsight in addition to 7 bodyguards. All 7 bodyguards are equipped differently, and there's plenty of target locks, fusion, and plasma in there, which gives you the ability to kill, pin, or blow up a number of different units while remaining pretty much unkillable. You can put wounds on the drones. Here's a Farsight bomb example:

HQ: Commander Farsight:
Bodyguards:

1. Twin-linked plasma, blacksun filter, hard-wired drone controller, two gun drones
2. Twin-linked plasma, drone controller, two shield drones
3. Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, Target Lock, Hard wired drone controller, two gun drones
4. Fusion Blaster + Plasma Gun, Targeting array
5. Fusion Blaster + Plasma Gun, Targeting array, hard wired drone controller, two shield drones
6. Fusion blaster + Plasma gun, Targeting Array, Hard wired target lock, hard wired drone controller, 2 shield drones
7. Flamer + Fragmentation Airbursting Launcher, Target Lock

You can add more or less drones and other wargear as you need, in addition to different weaponry. Depending on whether you go first or second, you can basically take this unit and do anything with it. Deep strike it (with rerolls if you have a pathfinder devilfish on the board) or to jump it up the board. It can take out multiple units, multiple vehicles...you can FAB and/or flamer one unit, while also completely wiping out a unit of terminators, while simultaneously blowing up two tanks with the same unit.

Why limit yourself with Farsight when you can take 2 Commanders and do the same thing basically it also comes out to cheaper and you make out like a bandit. I dont feel like writing out all that for points but it seems if you take the lower cost commander and drop one you still have 6 guys in crisis suits with that armament. Also you can split them into two teams but make them stay together with movement then have one team with Marker Lights to give to the other squad of 3.

Hollismason wrote:Why limit yourself with Farsight when you can take 2 Commanders and do the same thing basically it also comes out to cheaper and you make out like a bandit. I dont feel like writing out all that for points but it seems if you take the lower cost commander and drop one you still have 6 guys in crisis suits with that armament. Also you can split them into two teams but make them stay together with movement then have one team with Marker Lights to give to the other squad of 3.

Because thats all 1 squad. That leaves you room for another comander+bodyguard, and then all your Eliet slots as well.

I guess I actually like that suit layout above but I would go with 2 Commanders and 2 body guard squads to make it a hard hitting squad.

I don't like Farsite as Ive yet to see a army that doesnt involve; incredibly small model count. As everyone seems to do that and it does get spanked around by CC armies.

Just personal taste I like having a big F U 6 man team of Body Guards and Commander. I wish the damn feel no pain was not special issue :(.

While we are wishing, I wish the suits were T5. That would make me happy.