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Hey everyone, lately Ive been getting more and more involved in 40k. Since I have yet to find my summer Job and money around my home is tight I decided to start building proxy models. My proxies are built to scale and are not all that bad to look at. When gaming I do not understand why the person with a 10,000 point army and money to burn has to make me the person with a 2500 point army feel like crap the whole time their around?

Well, post up some pictures so we can see them firsthand.

I will post up some pics of my lead russ. Just charging my camera


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Lascannon and bolters being repaired

The barrel is somewhat weird, IMHO, but that's just me.

Everything else looks fine, IMHO.

The Leman Russ needs some finishing, but it looks like you're on the right track. That'll show those GW bastards for raising their prices!

warpcrafter wrote:The Leman Russ needs some finishing, but it looks like you're on the right track. That'll show those GW bastards for raising their prices!

lol yup. They expect me to pay more when I was barely affording them in the first place

Jon Touchdown wrote: When gaming I do not understand why the person with a 10,000 point army and money to burn has to make me the person with a 2500 point army feel like crap the whole time their around?

Just some thoughts, and I mean no offense when I say these, but I can think of a few reasons someone might be unkind to you when you have a 2500 point army build like this and they have 10,000 points.

1) You are clearly simply trying to save money. Your proxies are clearly an attempt to not buy company's models. They work, but are not particularly visually impressive, or even painted. Which leads us to

2) You are not supporting the hobby. Buying from internet discounters gives GW money, buying from GW gives GW money, heck, even buying from ebay gives GW money (people selling off their old armies to fund new ones). By proxying your army you are depriving a company that provides a strictly luxury item of any kind of monitory support. Other players may look at you as follows. "Ive done my bit to make sure this company stays in business, but you haven't."

3) They might not believe not to be able to afford the hobby. I certainly don't believe you. 2500 points of proxy models had to cost something, why didnt you just save up and wait till you could afford the whole thing. Surely you could work your finances to have a free 20-30 dollars at the end of every month. Just build your army slowly.

4) Some people like the game for the visuals, two crisply painted, finely detailed armies slugging it out. Your scratchbuilds work for game play, but they are kind of ugly, and not necessarily in a good way. This fact will bother certain players.

These strike me as some of the reasons people will give you crap for your army.

Elnicko5 wrote:

Jon Touchdown wrote: When gaming I do not understand why the person with a 10,000 point army and money to burn has to make me the person with a 2500 point army feel like crap the whole time their around?

Just some thoughts, and I mean no offense when I say these, but I can think of a few reasons someone might be unkind to you when you have a 2500 point army build like this and they have 10,000 points.

1) You are clearly simply trying to save money. Your proxies are clearly an attempt to not buy company's models. They work, but are not particularly visually impressive, or even painted. Which leads us to

2) You are not supporting the hobby. Buying from internet discounters gives GW money, buying from GW gives GW money, heck, even buying from ebay gives GW money (people selling off their old armies to fund new ones). By proxying your army you are depriving a company that provides a strictly luxury item of any kind of monitory support. Other players may look at you as follows. "Ive done my bit to make sure this company stays in business, but you haven't."

3) They might not believe not to be able to afford the hobby. I certainly don't believe you. 2500 points of proxy models had to cost something, why didnt you just save up and wait till you could afford the whole thing. Surely you could work your finances to have a free 20-30 dollars at the end of every month. Just build your army slowly.

4) Some people like the game for the visuals, two crisply painted, finely detailed armies slugging it out. Your scratchbuilds work for game play, but they are kind of ugly, and not necessarily in a good way. This fact will bother certain players.

These strike me as some of the reasons people will give you crap for your army.

Well actually my army is 95% GW models and the other 5% proxies as pictured above. It has been til only recently that I can no longer afford GW models. I do not have a credit card for online buying and I give whatever money I make to my dad we are desperately trying to raise money to pay to repair to minor yet expensive bumper damage done to another car while working. These are made for gameplay purposes only not looks I mean seriously Im not going to waste good paint on cardboard and cardstock.

The way I see it is like so

If you cant honestly afford to buy the expensive stuff now, thats fine. It doesnt bother me in the least if you have to make a proxy for our game. As long as its in the right proportions and isnt a blob of playdoh, then its fine with me.
You dont have to explain your financial situation to some jerks on the internet of all places, why you cannot afford this stuff. Money problems happen. They happen to everyone. Anyone who sticks their nose in the air because "your being cheap" can just keep on thinking that way. Your proxies look good, they arnt crap, nor ugly. Just keep doing what your doing, and enjoy this game. Forget anyone else who says other wise

KingCracker wrote:The way I see it is like so

If you cant honestly afford to buy the expensive stuff now, thats fine. It doesnt bother me in the least if you have to make a proxy for our game. As long as its in the right proportions and isnt a blob of playdoh, then its fine with me.
You dont have to explain your financial situation to some jerks on the internet of all places, why you cannot afford this stuff. Money problems happen. They happen to everyone. Anyone who sticks their nose in the air because "your being cheap" can just keep on thinking that way. Your proxies look good, they arnt crap, nor ugly. Just keep doing what your doing, and enjoy this game. Forget anyone else who says other wise

Just thought I would expand on the post. I really do love the hobby and support it as much as I can. True stuff right there I guess I just let it get to me because I was feeling down

My Grey Knights would gladly scrape a hole in the back of your Paper-Russ! Just don't shoot me on the way.

Majesticgoat wrote:My Grey Knights would gladly scrape a hole in the back of your Paper-Russ! Just don't shoot me on the way.

Lol nice. I wont shoot you, just back up lol

Good points on this subject.

I agree that it entirely up to the other player whether they want a game or not. As long as you put of effort into making the proxies, I see no reason why not to have a fun game. Personally I could give half a hoot about MOST of the GW models, I used to model replica balsa wood airplanes and coat them with tissue paper. I would spend around the same amount of money, and quite frankly it was just much more fun to look at.

I don't mean that the models are bad... well some are terrible. All I am saying is the game is a game, and if you really play because you want to see a nicely painted futuristic armies duking it out, you should be into making dioramas... seriously though. After all is said and done these are ALL toys; if your opponent is really that good at painting (which most of us are not) then they can just stay home and spank the crank over how amazing their army looks. No offense to those with these skills, just to those who can't stand to play with a less experienced painter. I am lucky enough not to have a gaming store that is too big for it's britches. Glued, posed, and base-coated armies are no problem whatsoever. Scratch-built needs to be very close to spec, but this is not too much to ask.

I would play games with bottle caps if I was really dead broke, and if people had a problem with it ON TOP of not offering any help and advice about proxying models in various ways... I would be inclined to punch them in their snobbish nose. People DO have things they need to buy, and situations that take precedent over WH40k. This is no reason to abandon the hobby altogether. More than half of the wargaming hobby is personalization, and everyone with the same models and same paint schemes is... well it's VERY boring.

Being a huge fan of scratch-built armies, I would play pretty much any fully scratch-built force no questions asked. Oh, the dildo-marines, why of course we can battle. Just try to make your army have a bit of personality with a bit of cheap spray paint camo patterns. Man... I can't believe I didn't add those last two sentences together somehow...

Id rather play a good game with good people, than good models.

Theres a fellow with an ork post and much of his stuff is made from card stuff- and looks better than alot of peoples skill with regular kits.

Theres lots of templates out there, and card stock is pretty much free since so much food comes in boxes these days.

Also- building you own builds modeling skills. Teaches you new things that poppin parts off of a sprue cannot.

I think what you did is cool.

I am personally one of the cheapest persons on this planet and I stayed away from this game/hobby for so long because of the cost.

Just a bit of advice though. You could spend about $10 and make them way more permanent. A few bucks on a plasticard sign at your local mega lumber store and a bottle of super glue and use the same patterns on the card and BAM! you got a more sturdy version. Plus a little primer on them and you are golden. And that $10 could maybe get you 3 or 4 of those done.

I just mention that as cheap substitute for the GW stuff.

But I say TIGHT WADES UNITE!!!!!

Mistress of minis wrote:Id rather play a good game with good people, than good models.

Theres a fellow with an ork post and much of his stuff is made from card stuff- and looks better than alot of peoples skill with regular kits.

Theres lots of templates out there, and card stock is pretty much free since so much food comes in boxes these days.

Also- building you own builds modeling skills. Teaches you new things that poppin parts off of a sprue cannot.

Ill have to look for that. Some peoples' skill with cardstock is amazing but I dont have that much time or skill. I have learned more actually

Stump wrote:I think what you did is cool.

I am personally one of the cheapest persons on this planet and I stayed away from this game/hobby for so long because of the cost.

Just a bit of advice though. You could spend about $10 and make them way more permanent. A few bucks on a plasticard sign at your local mega lumber store and a bottle of super glue and use the same patterns on the card and BAM! you got a more sturdy version. Plus a little primer on them and you are golden. And that $10 could maybe get you 3 or 4 of those done.

I just mention that as cheap substitute for the GW stuff.

But I say TIGHT WADES UNITE!!!!!

hmm that does sound a better. I think Ill give it a shot after I pratice with some some cardstock models. UNITE

I'd have no problem playing against paper proxies as long as you can tell what it is you're playing against.. and the paper player is still making an effort to upgrade the paper to plastic, even if it's a small effort.

Everyone has money problems sometime, just because I can afford something I wouldn't hold it against someone who can't. But then, I buy models weather I can afford them or not. Mortgage payments are for wusses.

Stump wrote:But I say TIGHT WADES UNITE!!!!!

Stump, once again you crack me up! Lol

I totally agree with his comment about the cardstock, too. Totally make these out of beefier material, prime them up and give them a paint job. They won't look half bad and you definitely wouldn't get complaints from any reasonable gamer after seeing the effort you put in to make it look good

RiTides Nids wrote:

Stump wrote:But I say TIGHT WADES UNITE!!!!!

Stump, once again you crack me up! Lol

I totally agree with his comment about the cardstock, too. Totally make these out of beefier material, prime them up and give them a paint job. They won't look half bad and you definitely wouldn't get complaints from any reasonable gamer after seeing the effort you put in to make it look good

Im liking the plasticard idea. Is it hard to work with

On a side note, your first post made it sound like you had a 2500pt army made out of "proxies"... so I think most people were kind of envisioning that. Then after Elnicko posts his piece you corrected it to 5% proxy.

I think there's a huge difference in the two... someone with a 95% proxy (card/Playdoh/whatever) army is kind of annoying... though it honestly depends on the quality of the proxies. A 5% proxied army on the other hand... I can't really think of anyone that would bitch about that at all... Now, if you use the same craptastic Paper Leman Russ for the next 5 years, that's probably going to look slightly "cheap" in the long run...

Looking at the attempts you've made with paper/cardstock and they don't scream "this would annoy me to play against" like some stuff I've seen... I second what others have said on here, that you should really look at using some plasticard to beef them up and give you a better frame to work with... it's amazing what "garage sale" signs can be made into... somewhere in my closet I've got an entire Napoleonics army based with garage sale plastic that's been cut to fit...

Overall, half the hobby is about modeling... so just bring that up if someone complains too much about a temporary situation.

Wrexasaur wrote:. All I am saying is the game is a game, and if you really play because you want to see a nicely painted futuristic armies duking it out, you should be into making dioramas... seriously though. After all is said and done these are ALL toys; if your opponent is really that good at painting (which most of us are not) then they can just stay home and spank the crank over how amazing their army looks. No offense to those with these skills, just to those who can't stand to play with a less experienced painter. I am lucky enough not to have a gaming store that is too big for it's britches. Glued, posed, and base-coated armies are no problem whatsoever. Scratch-built needs to be very close to spec, but this is not too much to ask.

Fair enough, but consider this: if there are people like you who don't care (and that's OK), so too must it be OK for the people who do care. Shockingly, insisting on the same standard of model (painted, etc) is not akin to being a holocaust denier, or even "too big for their britches." It is simply a preference.

The Leman Russ is not bad for a rough pass--it needs a lot of detailing and a set of tracks, but the frame is solid. I might take a stab at one after seeing yours; have to look around for those card templates...

That Deathstrike though... Duct tape kinda crosses a line for me. Maybe for testing a new game variant or deciding if it's a good fit with your army before you build a 'real' one, but I would personally feel a little disappointed to play against it. Not because I'm a snob or because I don't tolerate scratchbuilt stuff (neither is true!) but because it doesn't appear that you spent a lot of time or effort to make it look good.

I'm quite sure we are on the same page here 3orangewhips.

If someone wants to play a game I will be happy to do so. When I say making dioramas, I mean if my models are not good enough to play with (and I think anyone can do this) because you had more time or experience to paint your army... well that would offend me. I would feel like you intentionally insulted me personally, just to make yourself feel better about whatever.

Now, on the other hand... OK. If you really want to have fights only with nicely painted armies, that is cool. Just don't expect to make that many friends. Or teach people to paint so they CAN play against you; this way you will make a lot of friends .


On the rocket note, yes it looks a bit messy. I think you could easily fix a new one out of a toilet paper roll reinforced with crumpled aluminum on the inside. Take a bit of cereal box cardboard and make a cone for the missile head and fins. Spray paint with a gray and possibly use a piece of cardboard to help put a bit of quick camo on it.

Jon Touchdown wrote:

RiTides Nids wrote:

Stump wrote:But I say TIGHT WADES UNITE!!!!!

Stump, once again you crack me up! Lol

I totally agree with his comment about the cardstock, too. Totally make these out of beefier material, prime them up and give them a paint job. They won't look half bad and you definitely wouldn't get complaints from any reasonable gamer after seeing the effort you put in to make it look good

Im liking the plasticard idea. Is it hard to work with

Here is a pic of my first attempt at scratch built. It is about 80% "For Sale" sign and the other 20% is old models I had laying around, a few old toys of my sons, phone wire, pvc pipe, pieces of sprue and a few pieces of an old rhino. But this might give you an idea of where you can go. I would have just put a link the the WIP thread but all the pics are gone.

In my opinion the sky is the limit with this stuff.





So now get busy so we can see what wonders you come up with.

When I hear about people playing Coke-can drop-pods and cigarette-packet Dreadnoughts, then making the effort to make a Proxy that actually looks like what it is supposed to be is a good start!
You've obviously made a good attempt to get them accurate, and I would advise making them a little less exact, if that helps get them neat.
A Paper Russ looks better if it is tidy and coloured, and no-one will mind if the shape/size is a bit off.

I have played Blood Bowl using A4 paper pitch and coins for players!

It shouldn't take too much effort to finalise the Russ, and maybe colour it in (Wax crayons and coloured pencils are cheap ). Trim the edges neatly, and glue everything into place, and its all good

For me, the game is about playing, not who has the most money/best paint-fu (I lose on both of those!), but it helps if stuff looks approximately right.

Hope this helps. Stick with the Hobby, and don't let spoilt rich kids put you off! If you work on your tactics, you can enjoy giving their Golden Demon Awards a good krumping with your Paper Russ!


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Mistress of minis wrote:Id rather play a good game with good people, than good models.

Theres a fellow with an ork post and much of his stuff is made from card stuff- and looks better than alot of peoples skill with regular kits.

Theres lots of templates out there, and card stock is pretty much free since so much food comes in boxes these days.

Also- building you own builds modeling skills. Teaches you new things that poppin parts off of a sprue cannot.

QFT

Sure, your 1st attempts will never win any awards, but when the 10,000 pt armies are still just plastic toys, your scratch-built tank battalion will be a sight to behold!

I'm not personally very fond of "paperhammer", but at the same time I appreciate why people do it. Besides, paper scratch builds teach you a lot of useful skills you can transfer to plasticard, which tends to work out as being more visually impressive. I'm currently suffering a bit of a cashflow crisis and am going to sell off a lot of my GW stuff, and I see myself making a lot of plasticard vehicles in the future... If you get the chance to find some cheap plasticard to work with, I imagine people might be a /lot/ more forgiving of proxied models. Stomp works wonders with old "for-sale" signs, IIRC...

The trick to styrene is finding it for free. . With a bit of time I am sure I can find some old signs laying somehow. Working with cereal box cardboard alone you can create some amazing stuff; use both cardboard AND plasticard you can make extremely solid models, then reinforce them with PVC tubing. No need for fancy joints or anything just keep it in one pose. If you want to take it to the next level trade cardboard for foam-board and continue to use PVC and styrene, include metal for bolts. With a bit of practice you will truly begin to amaze yourself at the creations you are able to make.

You can add detail with either spackle and airbrushed sandable primer -or- low-gauge aviary-wire and industrial got-glue ahesive. Sprues work fantastically for framing out armor on to plasticard. Brown kneadatite is suited for large scale projects like tanks with mechanical parts, simply because it is A.) cheaper than green stuff and B.) much more responsive to sanding and filing, so it can hold very nice edges. Combining a bit of conversion practice with your left over bits and stuff laying around the house you can make guns, fuel tanks, tank treads, war-gear (shovels, rope, sandbags, etc...), and so on.

Just try and find the hidden agenda of all the little pieces of scrap that you would otherwise throw away. No rotten fruit, no matter how funny it is . Keep your cereal boxes, plastic jars, aluminum/ tin cans, plastic bags even; take these materials and figure out ways to bring them back to life, then share with the DakkaDakka community what ideas you come up with.

The only time I've had an issue with a paper proxy model was in a tourny years ago. A player had a large notecard with "Predator" written on it and the facings marked. What you've done is quite impressive and you should be commended for it. As an aside, as long as you have a bank account of some kind you can purchase items on ebay through paypal.

Sarge wrote:As an aside, as long as you have a bank account of some kind you can purchase items on ebay through paypal.

But there must be some sort of currency in said account as well.

I play 40k because I love the background and the models. I do not enjoy 40k just for playing the game itself, so I would not play with/against paper proxies.

EDIT: (unless they were good enough to be almost the same as normal models, painted, etc)