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Do they all remember that he was just a man? Do some realize that he was much more?

This has always confused me. I know that my chap doesn't worship him as God but then again they do call him the Allfather.

Some are super-pious and zealous, like the Black Templars, and some see him as the Allfather (because he is the genetic father of the Primarchs).

Cheese Elemental wrote:Some are super-pious and zealous, like the Black Templars.

I guess it is the nature of their piety that confuses me. What exactly do they think of him? Wolves can reckon him as the best warrior ever to live, given that he even tossed Russ about, and that's more than enough for their mythology. But how do the "pious" Chapters see him? Do they believe he is omnipotent? In the face of the Golden Throne? How about the Fists? BT fanaticism came from somewhere.

If I recall correctly, older chapters remember him as a man (the greatest man that will ever exist, but still just a man). Newer chapters have fallen into the Imperial Cult's idea of the Empruh as a god.

details? proof?

IIRC, Space Marines regard the Emporer as a powerful man, but do not view him as a God, though I'm not sure if thats 3rd Ed rulebook or a codex. I will see if i can find it and then I can post a page ref.

Frankly, it's confusing what the concept of "god" means to any faction.

Manchu wrote:details? proof?

nice source for pre-heresy view on the emperor:
"Horus rising", especially Lokens ( Lunar wolve SM ) and karkasys (human artist ) thougths on this matter.
There is also an imperial edict mentioned. And religious places burnt to the ground.

The veneration of the emperor as God was started from Lorgar, cause he was raised in an over-religious community and needed a
spiritual leader. Astartes chaiplains are said to be his invention too. Turned out he preached to false gods later and undermined the
Imperium when his father ( the emporer) refused to act as a "God".

I don't believe SM think of the emperor as a god, some newer foundings may follow a more religious approach.

One of the greatest aspects of the HH series, I think, is the way they handle the beginnings of the Imperial cult. The first adherents aren't what you would call willing fanatics. They all seem pretty reluctant. Even Nathaniel Garro, a stalwart SM not touched by heresy, can fathom the developing truth of it. Also, BT are not a newer founding. I thought they represented the most fanatical of the original Fists, Sigsmund being the prototype.

The templars are fanatical followers of the emperors cause. Thus enforcing an ongoing crusade.
But they don't look at the emperor as the ecclesiarchy does. So still "the emperor", not "the GOD-emperor" IMHO.

BT have alot in common with medieval knight templars in style and behaviour.
Maybe less in the "religious" compartment. Couldn't see them as male SOB.

I think that's a very fair description, aside from the Knights Templar comparison.

So:

devotion to Emperor's cause = protecting, spreading humanity by destroying xenos, mutants, heretics

devotion to Emperor = ?

Manchu wrote:I think that's a very fair description, aside from the Knights Templar comparison.

So:

devotion to Emperor's cause = protecting, spreading humanity by destroying xenos, mutants, heretics

devotion to Emperor = ?

devotion to Emperor as marketing strategy = Profit

defeat Horus
worship Empra
???
Profit

I think SM think of the Emperor as the ultimate man.
Not a god exactly, but the closest darn thing to it.

They worship him yes, they acknowledge he is superior yes, but they don't go that little step further of saying "OH MY GOD!"

.....I do his bidding, slay his enemies, and claim worlds in his name and he rewards me with HIS damning silence!?!?!?!?.......BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GGGGAAAAAWWWWWWDDDDD!!!!

Emperors Faithful wrote:I think SM think of the Emperor as the ultimate man.
Not a god exactly, but the closest darn thing to it.

They worship him yes, they acknowledge he is superior yes, but they don't go that little step further of saying "OH MY GOD!"

It's semantic by that point. They call him a "man" but they say prayers to him, sacrifice in his name, ask for his blessing, believe they join him after death in the afterlife etc... The Ecclesiarchy call him a god, say prayers to him, sacrifice in his name, ask for his blessing, believe they join him after death in the afterlife etc...

Aside from the labels, their actions are essentially the same.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/11/394495.page

Here's some fluff from the 2E SoB Codex about that topic. I think it was also reprinted in one of the big rulebooks (3E?). Maybe that helps a bit?

Manchu wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Some are super-pious and zealous, like the Black Templars.

I guess it is the nature of their piety that confuses me. What exactly do they think of him? Wolves can reckon him as the best warrior ever to live, given that he even tossed Russ about, and that's more than enough for their mythology. But how do the "pious" Chapters see him? Do they believe he is omnipotent? In the face of the Golden Throne? How about the Fists? BT fanaticism came from somewhere.

Is anybody omnipotent in the 41st millennium? I can't think of anybody. Even the big E. It would take a fool to think so too, as if he was omnipotent he would not be up on that big ol' throne of his would he?

O.P. He is the Emperor, that is all. He is not omnipotent or transcendent, he is just the unquestioned ruler of mankind. SMs who think more of him do not exist.

The natives of SM recruiting worlds definitely view both the Emperor and their Primarch as gods. On Fenris, the Allfather created the universe, and Russ walked among them, also becoming the sun or something. It's called the Eye of Russ IIRC.

The SM chapters themselves don't see the primarchs as gods, and see the Emperor as the guy who does weird things in the Warp.

The thing that confuses me is if most Chapters don't worship the chapter as a god then what do they worship. They're supposed to be religious warrior-monks. I know some worship their primarchs, but like what do the Red Scorpions worship? There are a lot of average chapters out there like that.

Even if, as it seems, most Space Marines do not worship the Emperor as a god, the Astartes nevertheless still follow the Imperial creed of 'Obey the Emperor, suffer not the alien, purge the witch and the mutant.' with 'religious' fervour - the mission entrusted to them by the Emperor in his lifetime.

Maybe it helps if you compare SM beliefs to Buddhism? There's quite a few parallels there, and Buddha isn't revered as a god either - just an "enlightened" human being.

Manchu wrote:Do they all remember that he was just a man? Do some realize that he was much more?

This is quite a biased question, you are putting forward a point that all space marine beliefs (alot of them far older than the imperial faith) are wrong.

Most space marine chapters especially the older chapters believe that the Emperor was/is thee greatest human being ever, but still human.

Also this is a very regular question, so a quick search of the board would have got you your answer.

S.M.W.A. (Space Marines With Attitude) - Emperor
the new 40k top single

Who casted the raise dead spell?

BluntmanDC wrote:Also this is a very regular question, so a quick search of the board would have got you your answer.

The post you quoted was posted three years before you made this comment. So there's that. Also, there is no set answer -- it is a topic of discussion.

I believe it would be fair to say he is viewed as God, first posing the question: What is God? Omnipotent? In a sense he is, thousands of Psykers a day are sacrificed to him daily so that once in awhile he may grant a vision to a soldier from the Golden Throne... Prayers are said to him as well, which whether or not he has the ability to answer them, it is obviously thought amongst the SMs that to be the case to some extent, or why else would the prayers and litanies be recited? In my opinion, the Emperor is the almighty, the Allfather, and in some cases referred to as a God, whereas the Primarchs would be more his Titans. Right now the Emperor is even held to some standard of immortality, although were that to end I imagine the Empire would just fuse it in as a killed yet reborn into a more powerful deity, sort of like with Jesus (>_<

Manchu wrote:Do they all remember that he was just a man? Do some realize that he was much more?

This has always confused me. I know that my chap doesn't worship him as God but then again they do call him the Allfather.

I figure I should clarify that IIRC only the Space Wolves refer to the Emperor as the Allfather.

All Space Marines see the Emperor as the gratest Humans who has ever lived. And they do see him as a father ( Primarchs were his children after all, and all Space Marines [ except GK ] bare their geenseed, witch bonds them directly to the Emperor ).

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote:details? proof?

nice source for pre-heresy view on the emperor:
"Horus rising", especially Lokens ( Lunar wolve SM ) and karkasys (human artist ) thougths on this matter.
There is also an imperial edict mentioned. And religious places burnt to the ground.

The veneration of the emperor as God was started from Lorgar, cause he was raised in an over-religious community and needed a
spiritual leader. Astartes chaiplains are said to be his invention too. Turned out he preached to false gods later and undermined the
Imperium when his father ( the emperor) refused to act as a "God".

Chaplains were decidedly NOT his invention. They were introduced by Malcador at the Council of Nikaea in order to basically keep an eye for Chaos corruption (although no one outright said that's what they were for) and general deviant behavior.