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Omegus wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote:details? proof?

nice source for pre-heresy view on the emperor:
"Horus rising", especially Lokens ( Lunar wolve SM ) and karkasys (human artist ) thougths on this matter.
There is also an imperial edict mentioned. And religious places burnt to the ground.

The veneration of the emperor as God was started from Lorgar, cause he was raised in an over-religious community and needed a
spiritual leader. Astartes chaiplains are said to be his invention too. Turned out he preached to false gods later and undermined the
Imperium when his father ( the emperor) refused to act as a "God".

Chaplains were decidedly NOT his invention. They were introduced by Malcador at the Council of Nikaea in order to basically keep an eye for Chaos corruption (although no one outright said that's what they were for) and general deviant behavior.

As per the HH-series, they are the role model where Malcador copied from. I know I've quoted it once, but can't remember ATM where i found it. So basically the idea of chaplains was Lorgars. The actual implementation of chaplains was at Malcadors order.

Some SM may not like him....but then they are probably corrupted.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Some are super-pious and zealous, like the Black Templars, and some see him as the Allfather (because he is the genetic father of the Primarchs).

Yeah, I hate this view of the Black Templars.

"Pious" and "zealous" seems to suggest to a lot of people that the BTs are the 40K equivalent of Westboro Baptist, or any other fundamentalist group out there. If anything, I would say they're more secular than the average Space Marine chapter. The original vision of the Emperor was to cleanse the galaxy of threats to humanity - including religion. As far as we know, he's never recanted that, which is what makes the Ecclesiarchy so ironic. The Black Templars claim to be the only chapter carrying on with the Emperor's original crusade, so you can bet your ass they know his views on religion.

Keep in mind that 40K uses the language of religion for a great many things - science and technology, civil administration, etc. Using the language of religion isn't necessarily the same thing as being religious.

1hadhq wrote:

Omegus wrote:
Chaplains were decidedly NOT his invention. They were introduced by Malcador at the Council of Nikaea in order to basically keep an eye for Chaos corruption (although no one outright said that's what they were for) and general deviant behavior.

As per the HH-series, they are the role model where Malcador copied from. I know I've quoted it once, but can't remember ATM where i found it. So basically the idea of chaplains was Lorgars. The actual implementation of chaplains was at Malcadors order.

I think it was as Omegus says that it was the Chaplain Edict at Nikaea where Chaplains were introduced, to ensure that the Emperors ruling was followed, and I think that it was in one of the Visions books where it mentions that Malcador gets his idea from Lorgar 1hadhq.

Back on topic

Dark Angels
The Dark Angels Chapter gives praise to the Emperor of Mankind but, much to the chagrin of the Ecclesiarchy, do not revere him as a god.

White Scars
They venerate the Emperor as the ultimate Uniter and as their founding father, but not as a deity.

Raven Guard
To the Raven Guard, the Emperor is a distant figure, acknowledged as their founder and master of the galaxy, but who is not accorded the level or worship common amongst other Chapters.

Crimson Fists
The Crimson Fists venerate the Emperor as the gene-father of the Adeptus Astartes, and Rogal Dorn as the Primarch of the Imperial Fists Legion.

Red Scorpions
The Red Scorpions’ beliefs remain something of a mystery. They do not seem to venerate any Primarch above any other, preferring instead to venerate only the Emperor.

Blood Ravens
Like many Codex Chapters, the Blood Ravens do not venerate the Emperor as a god, but as the mightiest of men

Seaward wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Some are super-pious and zealous, like the Black Templars, and some see him as the Allfather (because he is the genetic father of the Primarchs).

Yeah, I hate this view of the Black Templars.

"Pious" and "zealous" seems to suggest to a lot of people that the BTs are the 40K equivalent of Westboro Baptist, or any other fundamentalist group out there. If anything, I would say they're more secular than the average Space Marine chapter. The original vision of the Emperor was to cleanse the galaxy of threats to humanity - including religion. As far as we know, he's never recanted that, which is what makes the Ecclesiarchy so ironic. The Black Templars claim to be the only chapter carrying on with the Emperor's original crusade, so you can bet your ass they know his views on religion.

Keep in mind that 40K uses the language of religion for a great many things - science and technology, civil administration, etc. Using the language of religion isn't necessarily the same thing as being religious.

Claiming this doesn't make it true. Honestly, I find your version of BT much more interesting than GW's but the codex doesn't support it. Nothing in the codex suggests anything about the secular truth or empirical reason. Everything in the codex reeks of prayer, ceremony and other things that would have made members of the original crusade flip their wigs. If they were truly continuing the great crusade they would be fighting the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. I don't believe that they deify the Emperor in the same manner as the Ecclisiarchy, but rather have a more fervent and zealous version of codex chapter's beliefs.

Oakenshield wrote:
Claiming this doesn't make it true. Honestly, I find your version of BT much more interesting than GW's but the codex doesn't support it. Nothing in the codex suggests anything about the secular truth or empirical reason. Everything in the codex reeks of prayer, ceremony and other things that would have made members of the original crusade flip their wigs. If they were truly continuing the great crusade they would be fighting the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. I don't believe that they deify the Emperor in the same manner as the Ecclisiarchy, but rather have a more fervent and zealous version of codex chapter's beliefs.

That's the thing, though; we're never really told what, specifically, the Black Templars are fervent and zealous about, aside from hitting things in the face. There may be fluff examples of them praying to the Emperor, but I can't recall any. They're fanatical, no doubt about it, but I think people read too much into what they're actually fanatical about; they may be religious fanatics, but their religion is the Emperor's crusade, not the religion of the Ecclesiarchy.

Seaward wrote:

Oakenshield wrote:
Claiming this doesn't make it true. Honestly, I find your version of BT much more interesting than GW's but the codex doesn't support it. Nothing in the codex suggests anything about the secular truth or empirical reason. Everything in the codex reeks of prayer, ceremony and other things that would have made members of the original crusade flip their wigs. If they were truly continuing the great crusade they would be fighting the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. I don't believe that they deify the Emperor in the same manner as the Ecclisiarchy, but rather have a more fervent and zealous version of codex chapter's beliefs.

That's the thing, though; we're never really told what, specifically, the Black Templars are fervent and zealous about, aside from hitting things in the face. There may be fluff examples of them praying to the Emperor, but I can't recall any. They're fanatical, no doubt about it, but I think people read too much into what they're actually fanatical about; they may be religious fanatics, but their religion is the Emperor's crusade, not the religion of the Ecclesiarchy.

The thing is though, that the original crusaders eschewed anything that even hinted at religion and in many instances faith. Just because they don't conform to the ecclisiarchy's religion doesn't make them secular. The codex explicitly uses terms like prayer, which would be a huge no-no against the backdrop of the great crusade. Basically the BT aren't running a crusade of unification and enlightenment but rather they've taken the xenophobia and mistrust of psykers present since the great crusade and amplified them into a religious fervor. I understand your frustration that people see them as parallels to the ecclesiarchy because they are most definitely not. I think they're thematic purpose is to be a bunch of rabid zealots who will rush the first enemy they see, as a counterbalance against the cool dispassioned strategy of the Imperial Fists.

Oakenshield wrote:
The thing is though, that the original crusaders eschewed anything that even hinted at religion and in many instances faith. Just because they don't conform to the ecclisiarchy's religion doesn't make them secular. The codex explicitly uses terms like prayer, which would be a huge no-no against the backdrop of the great crusade. Basically the BT aren't running a crusade of unification and enlightenment but rather they've taken the xenophobia and mistrust of psykers present since the great crusade and amplified them into a religious fervor. I understand your frustration that people see them as parallels to the ecclesiarchy because they are most definitely not. I think they're thematic purpose is to be a bunch of rabid zealots who will rush the first enemy they see, as a counterbalance against the cool dispassioned strategy of the Imperial Fists.

Depends entirely on who they're praying to - if it's specifically stated they pray to the Emperor, then I'll concede the point, but otherwise, I'd take it as more 40K's habit of using the language of religion for pretty much every aspect of society. For example, the machine spirit; is it actually a spirit? Everyone in the 41st millennium thinks it is, but we, as dispassionate readers, probably more or less agree it's a limited AI rather than something with an actual soul. What 40K calls a "priest of Terra" we'd call a bureaucrat. BT prayers, until I hear differently, strike me more like Crusade-era oaths of moment.

I wouldn't say I'm frustrated that people see them as parallel to the Ecclesiarchy; I just don't think people have thought it all the way through, with the Black Templars. Far as I know, they don't recognize the Emperor as divine, and while you can make the point that religion can exist without the belief in a divine being - Buddhism, for example - that doesn't seem particularly likely; if they're fanatically religious, what's their religion? See what I mean?

Lynata wrote:Maybe it helps if you compare SM beliefs to Buddhism? There's quite a few parallels there, and Buddha isn't revered as a god either - just an "enlightened" human being.

I believe this is the most accurate description. They are warrior monks. Their prayer is more like meditation. The Emperor isn't a god but he is to be venerated nontheless.

Blood Ravens
Like many Codex Chapters, the Blood Ravens do not venerate the Emperor as a god, but as the mightiest of men

Depends on what you're reading. The original DoW has the Blood Ravens making frequent reference to the "God-Emperor" and to "exonerate the Immortal Emperor". Captain Angelos even says at one point, "If the Emperor had not intended that I suffer, then I would not feel pain", which imparts more of a Creator-myth to the Emperor than most SM Chapters would.

The Emperor is their creator. No myth required.

The Emperor created Space Marines, true, but they aren't born as Space Marines. They have a childhood history, a planet they were born on, a family. This line makes no sense unless they consider the God-Emperor to be the creator of all Mankind.

They don't. But when they say The Emperor is their creator they're not talking about genesis they're being literal.

I'm still not buying the BR as a "secular" Marine chapter. There's too many units making reference to serving the Emperor as a means to salvation and other such religious comments to view them as such.

Further, since these guys aren't 10,000 years old and never met the GE as a man, there's little reason to think they would just abandon the religious teachings of the Imperium upon becoming Space Marines. It's not like there's a Drill Instructor there who says, "Okay, pukes, listen up. Remember all that teaching the Ecclesiarchy gave you last year? Yeah, well, forget it! It's all a buncha crap! The Emperor? Just a guy... a motherfething asskicking gakstomping feth of a guy... but just a guy! Alright, now, on to more important lessons... the Chainsword!"

The most confusing part is the Chaplain. The Chaplain is an Ecclesiarchy-approved marine. He's even given a rosarius from the church as his badge of office.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The most confusing part is the Chaplain. The Chaplain is an Ecclesiarchy-approved marine. He's even given a rosarius from the church as his badge of office.

The Rosarius is just a tenuous symbolism of the link between the Ecclesiarchy and the Marine Chapter's own specific warrior cults. Otherwise it's nothing more than a pretty bauble that just happens to prove useful as a forcefield generator. Chaplains still pretty much disdain the Imperial Cult and follow their own Chapter's ways.

Ronin wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The most confusing part is the Chaplain. The Chaplain is an Ecclesiarchy-approved marine. He's even given a rosarius from the church as his badge of office.

The Rosarius is just a tenuous symbolism of the link between the Ecclesiarchy and the Marine Chapter's own specific warrior cults. Otherwise it's nothing more than a pretty bauble that just happens to prove useful as a forcefield generator. Chaplains still pretty much disdain the Imperial Cult and follow their own Chapter's ways.

Why would the Ecclesiarchy approve of someone who disdains their cult?

The Ecclesiarchy has absolutely no say in who becomes a Chaplain. A Chaplain is there to promulgate whatever Imperial Cult/Emperor Worship the Chapter participates in.

Psienesis wrote:The Ecclesiarchy has absolutely no say in who becomes a Chaplain. A Chaplain is there to promulgate whatever Imperial Cult/Emperor Worship the Chapter participates in.

What this poster said. Ecclessiarchy has no power or sway over the Chaplains, or their Chapter's warrior cult. It is forbearance on their part because a) they know that everything the Astartes do they do in the Emperor's name, even if they do not deify him like the Imperial Cult, and b) there's no sense in trying to antagonise a powerful, and autonomous group such as the Astartes, so its best just to show some level of respect by not trying to shove the Imperial Creed down their throats.

That being said, some Chapters are more than happy enough to venerate the God-Emperor. IA9's rendition of the Fire Hawks have them blatantly follow the Imperial Creed, and were one of the few chapters to directly intervene in the civil wars that came up with the Plague of Unbelief.

Most Chapters are atheist, following a corrupted and half-forgotten version of the Imperial Truth. They venerate the Emperor as the Master of Mankind, but they do not worship Him as a god. They acknowledge the existence of warp entities, but they do not believe such things are gods. A few though follow the Imperial Cult's proclamations of the Emperor's divinity. For the most part, most Space Marines try to keep the Imperial Church at arm's length.

Tadashi wrote:Most Chapters are atheist, following a corrupted and half-forgotten version of the Imperial Truth. They venerate the Emperor as the Master of Mankind, but they do not worship Him as a god. They acknowledge the existence of warp entities, but they do not believe such things are gods. A few though follow the Imperial Cult's proclamations of the Emperor's divinity. For the most part, most Space Marines try to keep the Imperial Church at arm's length.

I'm not so sure any actually do follow the Imperial Cult, or at least none that have ever been officially mentioned.

I could be wrong, and if so, definitely let me know, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.