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http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6207&p=25324

Is a discussion from Joesph Goodman, of goodman games on 4e and a rebuttle, and the interesting part was a point on GW games....

With these myths dispelled, let's discuss the meaning of "doing well." First, some historical context. Before I founded Goodman Games, I wrote a book on the history of this industry. It was something of a research project that turned into a book. I was planning to start a game company, and I wanted to do it right, so I researched the history of the three primary publishing categories. Most of the gaming history that gets published these days is product-focused, with an emphasis on creators, artists, inspirations, and the like. My research was focused on the business strategies of the companies involved. For example, in the early 1980's when Games Workshop got the license to produce official D&D miniatures from TSR, they did absolutely nothing with it and effectively used it to shut down their competitors so they could launch their own fantasy miniatures line. Has anybody else here studied the retail locator lists in White Dwarf magazine over the 1980's? Cross-reference the independent hobby shops listed in the early 1980's against the addresses of the GW company shops listed in the late 1980's. It's fascinating; you can see the pattern of how GW opened shops in close proximity to their hobby accounts. If you ever want to learn actual TSR sales figures, do your homework and find all the lawsuits against them. It's all public record, and I've read it all. Dave Arneson sued TSR three times for unpaid royalties, and each of the court filings lists TSR sales figures for the years where he challenged.

so GW competes with its rivals? man i thought that they were on top due to their cheap prices and their well written rules

From my observations over 14 years with GW I have come to this conclusion:

There are three broad management views about GW retail and trade sales, they are:

a) GW retail stores are the only way to go, they are the only ones that can "do it" the right way. The easiest way to find out where to put these stores is to find where trade stores are doing well, then take their existing business.

b) Both GW retail and trade stores must exist in balance. GW stores do a better job of actively recruiting, but are more costly. Many trade stores do a reasonable job with the passive recruiting, and are more profitable for GW. Work out an equitable balance for store locations and see "all boats rise"

c) GW retail stores are a major money pit. They can't be profitable so all money should be channeled into opening more accounts. Close all the GW retail stores.

At various time throughout my career with GW I saw these "types" on a regular and somewhat rotating basis. Sometimes there would be all three on the same management team. The prevailing attitude was always the one held by the highest on the food chain at the time, subject to cahnge of course.

I'm not surprised that someone spotted a "trend" in the pages of WD, it has happened a number of times over the years but it is certainly not part of an ongoing core value of the business. It is a business practice of those managers who fit into group A and sometimes the group As are "in power". Sometimes, of course, there's negligence involved too.

I think the really interesting thing to take from this is that even in a niche market like hobby games, it's the quality of the business, not the quality of the product, that leads to success.

It's obvious that the quality of the business is predatory.

I'll agree with what Dave's observed. There's also always going to be some correlation even when opening near an existing account isn't the main purpose. The old saying of "location, location, location" means that when you look for a great spot to put a business, chances are someone else is already there. If you looked at the top 20 markets in the country to open a GW store, chances are there is a trade account somewhere close.

From my perspective, I've had stores since '88, and doing a lot of GW business since about '91. They've been more and more upfront about not putting a store in anywhere near me, and actually called to talk about spots in the metro area they wanted to go into, and what I thought of the idea. So while they may have once been predatory, they certainly don't seem to be now. Very easy to deal with, especially the last 5 years. There's a couple of spots about 10 miles from my stores that I'd actually like to have them put in a store, as I think it would work to both our benefits. They want their stores to sell lots of demo games, but don't have space to keep the players around. I don't mind gobbling up those new players and keeping them happy for the next 10 years.)

Interesting to hear DT's comment about the rotation of prevailing competing management styles. It explains a lot of the apparently bi-polar and even whimsical nature of many GW decisions.

Starbucks have the same strategy of opening near competitors.

A. It's a proven high footfall location.

B. The new Starbucks can outcompete a lot of competitors because it can be subsidised by other, profitable stores.

C. Starbucks also 'tripod' stores into areas so closely that they compete with each other as well as external rivals.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW's dilemma is that they can't realistically divorce themselves entirely from the wider world of wargaming.

However much they try to push the line that 40K/WHFB are The Hobby, the truth is that they grew off the back of the wider hobby.

Players recruited in independant shops are immediately exposed to non-GW products, which GW doesn't like, but GW simply can't replace all the independant shops because GW isn't the entire hobby.

This is news?

GW has been cannibalizing established LGS' for ages.

GW lets the LGS do the hard work of seeding the community, then comes in with their stores.

Oh, I see it was published in 2002. Still, not news even back then.

Y'know John, I can't agree with that.

We had at one point, 3 different FLGSes around me. The last one finally closed a few months back because of the recession, but we have never had a GW store closer than Charlotte. There's a big enough gaming community that it would be profitable, right now, for them to start one. But still...nothing.

But when I used to go up to Ithaca,NY to visit family, there were 3 separate GW stores within an hour of each other, with 1 or 2 FLGSes.

There used to be a GW store in San fransisco, but it has closed at some point in the last couple years. I would not be surprised at all if it was a way to shut down competitors before investing into a more profitable area.

Corporations are sincerely insincere, because.... drumroll... money. If you think they are helping you, they may actually be doing so, but that does not mean they are not a natural predator of the FLGS's throughout the world.

@K: GW doesn't come in unless they can saturate a market with 3 mall stores and a bunker. 1 store isn't enough.

So games workshop acts like a business with a vested interest in expanding its store base? SHOCKER!. These are common practices among business that have franchise stores.

JohnHwangDD wrote:This is news?

GW has been cannibalizing established LGS' for ages.

GW lets the LGS do the hard work of seeding the community, then comes in with their stores.

Oh, I see it was published in 2002. Still, not news even back then.

Yep, I was part of the "firebomb the Independants" era. Got the unique perspective of working first as a Mgr. of an FLGS and then a Hobby Center Mgr. But I have to say they have come a looooong way to get back the FLGS confidence. Now I work at an FLGS and we just started carrying GW product and I must say that dealing with Trade Sales is 1000 times better than it was back in the day.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@K: GW doesn't come in unless they can saturate a market with 3 mall stores and a bunker. 1 store isn't enough.

Having no stores to go to right now to get product without having to resort to online and the incompetent mail system...

I'd almost rather have a GW store :-/

JohnHwangDD wrote:@K: GW doesn't come in unless they can saturate a market with 3 mall stores and a bunker. 1 store isn't enough.

Not true, if this is the case then explain Grapevine Mills in Grapevine TX (Dallas). It has been the only GW store in the metroplex for several years (Dallas is a major US market with perfect demographics for GW).

How long has that store been there?

In the 90s, GW was drop-podding in single stores.

In the 2000s, GW is going for market saturation.

There used to be a handful of stockists in my region before GW opened their own Newcastle store.

One was a nearby specialist model shop (kits, trains, planes, etc) one of the others was a model railway specialist. When the GW opened, they were cut out of the supply loop.

Nothing new in this.

There was a franchise in dubai about GW, but I don't think the guys there worked for GW.

They were shitfy, REAAAL shifty. They actually fled the country after some scam I heard about. They had thier fingers in a lot of pies.

How shifty are we talking here?

JohnHwangDD wrote:How long has that store been there?

In the 90s, GW was drop-podding in single stores.

In the 2000s, GW is going for market saturation.

The store was opened in the early 2000s period (2001 I'm pretty sure) and has been the sole GW shop for the Dallas metroplex since that time. They've talked for years of expanding as it's supposed to be a well performing store, but who knows. As mentioned in this thread, GW seems to be all over the place when it comes to business strategy.

In about 1996 GW opened its first shop here in Perth, Australia. They have three here now, all within an hour of each other, but they service different areas (one in Perth city, one in a huge shopping centre in the suburbs, and another in Fremantle).

I don't think they have crowded out the FLGS, in fact I've seen an increase in the number of FLGS selling GW products. GW Games are doing well here, if the number of GW games clubs are anything to go by.

Tazok wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:How long has that store been there?

In the 90s, GW was drop-podding in single stores.

In the 2000s, GW is going for market saturation.

The store was opened in the early 2000s period (2001 I'm pretty sure) and has been the sole GW shop for the Dallas metroplex since that time. They've talked for years of expanding as it's supposed to be a well performing store, but who knows. As mentioned in this thread, GW seems to be all over the place when it comes to business strategy.

It was opened in the "Mills-mall era". That should be explanation enough.

Great input from Dave, thanks! That matches up very well with what I've seen (and heard from retailer friends) over the years.

I'm confused, is this a GW sux! or GW Rox! thread?

This is a GW's business practice is not good for the hobby and the community in the long run thread.

Osbad wrote:Interesting to hear DT's comment about the rotation of prevailing competing management styles. It explains a lot of the apparently bi-polar and even whimsical nature of many GW decisions.

Is that so surprising really? In any business, the Whimsy of new management does the exact same thing every day.. Why should it be any different in GW? And why should this be such a shocking thing that carmachu gets happy about it? Are you still looking for the conspiracy carmachu? come on man, let it go, just let it go.

I want to know why everyone pulls the ol witch hunt deal on GW for pretty much everything they do. Its really annoying.

1) it's the internet
2) 1/2 the people on Dakka don't play anymore
3) happy people are off playing games

4)..it's the internet

carmachu wrote:http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6207&p=25324

Is a discussion from Joesph Goodman, of goodman games on 4e and a rebuttle, and the interesting part was a point on GW games....

With these myths dispelled, let's discuss the meaning of "doing well." First, some historical context. Before I founded Goodman Games, I wrote a book on the history of this industry. It was something of a research project that turned into a book. I was planning to start a game company, and I wanted to do it right, so I researched the history of the three primary publishing categories. Most of the gaming history that gets published these days is product-focused, with an emphasis on creators, artists, inspirations, and the like. My research was focused on the business strategies of the companies involved. For example, in the early 1980's when Games Workshop got the license to produce official D&D miniatures from TSR, they did absolutely nothing with it and effectively used it to shut down their competitors so they could launch their own fantasy miniatures line. Has anybody else here studied the retail locator lists in White Dwarf magazine over the 1980's? Cross-reference the independent hobby shops listed in the early 1980's against the addresses of the GW company shops listed in the late 1980's. It's fascinating; you can see the pattern of how GW opened shops in close proximity to their hobby accounts. If you ever want to learn actual TSR sales figures, do your homework and find all the lawsuits against them. It's all public record, and I've read it all. Dave Arneson sued TSR three times for unpaid royalties, and each of the court filings lists TSR sales figures for the years where he challenged.

He's JUST NOW figuring this out???

LOL

Way to pull head out of the sand and state the obvious. And to think that a guy actually WROTE A BOOK about this, I'm wiping a cold beverage off of my keyboard, after reading this. Ask all of the shops that have gone out of buisness after the opening of the GW stores nearby.

Oh... Wait.


Honestly, though, it isn't GW's fault to go into a strong market and literally get what is basicly thiers in the beginning. What we fault them for is that they pretty much kill the golden goose by overcharging in the shops with thier pricing, lame over the top salesmanshi@ and encouraging a scorched earth policy in the game markets. It doesn't endear alot of loyalty when players are just pretty much treated like chumps treated to like morons.
" oh, you play *****, you REALLY NEED TO GET **** THEY are sooo much cooler!!!"- moron redshirt on at least 4 different occasions in at least 3 different stores in as many states.
And YES Virginia, they are guilty of being tools.
Too bad if it's annoying. Its even more annoying that your local game shops have to close down after years of neglect and overt tactical throatcutting on the part of GW to put legit games shop owners out of buisness.