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OK guys, this may get complicated buy bear with me.

In close combat, what happens if I wipe out a sqd of warriors and the lord with powerfist attacks all happening at the same time. Does the lord and all the models get to roll using the res orb? Or does only the lord get to roll with the orb. If there is a monolith within 18 inches, can they teleport the sqd through and get another chance to res?? I am preparin for the ard boys tourney and necrons rules interpretations have been driving me crazy. if this is a redundant post someone please point me in the right direction with a link. thanks. I am assuming that wiping a unit of necrons out in cc in one turn with powe weapons is the best way to deal with them. thanks. Does the lord get to use his phylactery against power weapons?? If all my attacks are INT 1 can Choose to resolve the necron lord portion of combat first in hopes of kiling im then using the other int 1 attacks to kill the warriors?? tahnks

oefgator wrote:OK guys, this may get complicated buy bear with me.

In close combat, what happens if I wipe out a sqd of warriors and the lord with powerfist attacks all happening at the same time. Does the lord and all the models get to roll using the res orb? Or does only the lord get to roll with the orb. If there is a monolith within 18 inches, can they teleport the sqd through and get another chance to res?? I am preparin for the ard boys tourney and necrons rules interpretations have been driving me crazy. if this is a redundant post someone please point me in the right direction with a link. thanks. I am assuming that wiping a unit of necrons out in cc in one turn with powe weapons is the best way to deal with them. thanks. Does the lord get to use his phylactery against power weapons?? If all my attacks are INT 1 can Choose to resolve the necron lord portion of combat first in hopes of kiling im then using the other int 1 attacks to kill the warriors?? tahnks

Formatting, Spellcheck and Linebreaks are your friends.

In close combat, what happens if I wipe out a sqd of warriors and the lord with powerfist attacks all happening at the same time. Does the lord and all the models get to roll using the res orb? Or does only the lord get to roll with the orb.

You are overcomplicating the Res orb Rules. The res orb effect is checked when the model is "killed", not when it tries to WBB.
Because it is all the same Initiative band, all the warriors are affected by the Res Orb, and will get to WBB next turn. If the Lord had Died in the Initiative 2 Band say, then the warriors would not get WBB.

If there is a monolith within 18 inches, can they teleport the sqd through and get another chance to res??

Yes, because the Orb was working at the time they went down. That is when you check for the orbs effect, not after.

Does the lord get to use his phylactery against power weapons??

Only if he has a Orb as well

If all my attacks are INT 1 can Choose to resolve the necron lord portion of combat first in hopes of kiling im then using the other int 1 attacks to kill the warriors??

All Attacks at Initiative 1 happen at the same time, and you must roll for them all at the same time. Use different coloured dice to differentiate between the attacks against the lord and those against the squad.

so would you recommend that i use higher initiative weapons to try and kill lord off first?? then my pfists can wipe his buddies out? and then if my pfists wipe his buddies out he cannot teleport thru monolith. i am running assault termies i am just trying to figure out how i am going to run my assaults from the LR.
i am rather inebriated so i apologize for my grammar spelling typing. thanks for responding to my gibberish =)

oefgator wrote:so would you recommend that i use higher initiative weapons to try and kill lord off first?? then my pfists can wipe his buddies out?

Yes

and then if my pfists wipe his buddies out he cannot teleport thru monolith.

Wrong. He may teleport through the Monolith, but if the Warriors are all dead and there is not a second squad within 6" for them to WWB into, then they cannot teleport.

if the lord fails his res orb wwb, he can still teleport thru monolith?. when does the res orb wwb happen? at the time of death so they technically get 2 wwbs or at beginning of next turn?

scenario


there are tons of warrior sqds withing 6 inches of the sqd with necron lord in it. i charge the necon lord sqd and kill him with normal power weapons int 4, then my pfists wipe out rest of sqd. the lord fails his WBB roll. can he do anyting else to save the sqd and lord???

oefgator wrote:if the lord fails his res orb wwb, he can still teleport thru monolith?. when does the res orb wwb happen? at the time of death so they technically get 2 wwbs or at beginning of next turn?

There is NO RES ORB WBB. All the res orb does is let you WBB when you wouldn't normally get a WBB. That is it. It doesn't grant extra WBB or anything. A Lord with Res orb gets Blatted by a PF. Normally he cant get a WBB, but the Orb lets him. he Fails the WBB and uses the Monolith to attempt a Second WBB.

there are tons of warrior sqds withing 6 inches of the sqd with necron lord in it. i charge the necon lord sqd and kill him with normal power weapons int 4, then my pfists wipe out rest of sqd. the lord fails his WBB roll. can he do anyting else to save the sqd and lord???

If the Lord Dies before the Warriors, the Warriors are not Protected by the orb and will not get a chance to WBB. In this casem the Lord then WBB, fails, then uses the monolith to try and WBB again. The Squad is dead and gone, because they were killed by Power Fists and not protected by an orb.

thanks gwar. these dudes at the local tourneys have been using res orb to grant 2 wbbs. one last thing. could you post a link to this eratta so i could print it out. i cant walk into my next tourney and say GWAR SAID YOU WRE WRONG.. haha thanks

oefgator wrote:thanks gwar. these dudes at the local tourneys have been using res orb to grant 2 wbbs. one last thing. could you post a link to this eratta so i could print it out. i cant walk into my next tourney and say GWAR SAID YOU WRE WRONG.. haha thanks

What errata? That is how it works in the book as is.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3400019&start=2 for the latest FAQs and Errata.

oefgator wrote:i cant walk into my next tourney and say GWAR SAID YOU WERE WRONG

You can if they frequent Dakka or just print out a copy of his sig and wave it around!

Copy his Avatar, put it on a T-shirt with the caption "Got Gwar?". Should be enough said.

Uriels_Flame wrote:Copy his Avatar, put it on a T-shirt with the caption "Got Gwar?". Should be enough said.

PM me for a HQ version of my avatar

So if the lord wbbs then the warriors would get one even though they were smacked at a dif int because he is still sticking around? Just curious.

Golga wrote:So if the lord wbbs then the warriors would get one even though they were smacked at a dif int because he is still sticking around? Just curious.

No. Firstly, WBB needs another Model of the SAME TYPE (Warriors need Warriors, Immortals Need immortals etc etc) or they cannot take WBB, Lords are the only Exception.

If you are saying that the warriors get the WBB cause the Orb is active, that is also incorrect. The Res Orb Effect is Checked AT THE VERY MOMENT A MODEL DIES. It doesn't matter of a Orb happens to be there at a later date, it was not there when the model died, so if it dies to a No WBB wound, it won't ever Get WBB.

Gwar! wrote:

Golga wrote:So if the lord wbbs then the warriors would get one even though they were smacked at a dif int because he is still sticking around? Just curious.

No. Firstly, WBB needs another Model of the SAME TYPE (Warriors need Warriors, Immortals Need immortals etc etc) or they cannot take WBB, Lords are the only Exception.

If you are saying that the warriors get the WBB cause the Orb is active, that is also incorrect. The Res Orb Effect is Checked AT THE VERY MOMENT A MODEL DIES. It doesn't matter of a Orb happens to be there at a later date, it was not there when the model died, so if it dies to a No WBB wound, it won't ever Get WBB.

That wasent quiet my question. Say the lord and warriors get assualted by the assualt temries. Lord bites it due to the lightning claw termie. He makes his wbb due to the orb. Then the warriors die from the attacks of the thunder hammers. Would they get the wbb because the lord died on another init value but still passed his wbb.

Well, first of all, WBB is not tested until the Beginning of the next Necron Movement phase, so I don't know why you are making any WBB rolls right away.

How it works is Thus:
I4 band: Lord is Sliced to bits. Is Placed on his side as he has an Orb, so may attempt WBB next Necron Movement Phase, but is now for all intents and purposes, Dead.

I1 Band: Thunderhammers feth the Warriors up, who are removed right away because there is no Orb allowing them to even attempt WBB.

And just be happy its Terminators/All the Warriors Died. If even 1 survived and got Sweeping advanced, all the Warriors AND the Lord would be Autoremoved with no WBB

Yup Gwar is right once again. hes a scary being !

Gwar! wrote:

And just be happy its Terminators/All the Warriors Died. If even 1 survived and got Sweeping advanced, all the Warriors AND the Lord would be Autoremoved with no WBB

Gwar, what if there is another squad of warriors with in 6" of the original squad that was wiped out in sweeping advance?

If my memory serves me, the wording of WBB implies you are allowed to take a WWB for any 'necron' model within 6" of another model of the same type for 'Any model reduced to 0 wounds or that would be otherwised removed." Power weapons in CC and weapons that double the models toughness disallow this rule.

So, pardon my long winded example but;

Squad of warrios (A) gets charged in CC, there is a lord and another squad of warrios (B) both within 6"

Squad (A) loses combat, takes a leadership test, fails, and is swept. At this point, you would measure to make sure there is another unit of the same type within 6", and since there would be, the entire swept unit would end up layed on its side awaiting WBB at the begging of the Crons turn.

Am I right? Or did I miss an entire section of the rulez where a sweeping advance somehow auto-disallows WBB.


.....I don't think I've used my crons much since early 4th...... :(

Page 40, last Line of the 1st Bullet point of Sweeping Advance.

Ok, ok I'll play nice:

Page 40 wrote:The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified , no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

WBB does not "Otherwise Specify", so the answer is still "They are dead and cannot WBB."

Aww shucks.

Just to clarify where some vets may be misunderstanding the res Orb +wbb rules: In the 3rd ED FAQ it was ruled that the Res Orb worked even if the Lord was 'Dead' and awaiting WBB; As long as the Lord's model was on the table, (even if only as 'debris') the Res Orb was functional. Alas, this ruling was NOT brought forth into later versions of the FAQ, and hence the orb no longer functions as it used to.

I don't know, Gwar, I think the Necrons who were sweeping advanced would still get their WBB roll. Granted, they would still need another necron model within 6" to try though.

RxGhost wrote:I don't know, Gwar, I think the Necrons who were sweeping advanced would still get their WBB roll. Granted, they would still need another necron model within 6" to try though.

Think it all you want, it doesn't make it right, because they don't. Sweeping advance states "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage". WBB is a Special rule and does not Specify as such, so WBB cannot save them.

If you REALLY want, I can break out the 4th ed and 5th ed rule and display them Side by side and show they are the EXACT same wording. If WBB didn't work in 4th (which it didn't) it doesn't work in 5th.

Well once again, I'm at work with no 'dex.

I'm ready and willing to play swept = no WBB, but I'd like to hash out the two key sentences in the rulebook and codex respectively.

I would love some help from anyone with the Necron Codex and BRB, if they could quote the sentences in question, it would be great.

Okay, 'Cron book under 'we'll be back' says something a la; "Any Necron model reduced to 0 wounds, or that would otherwise be removed from play is placed laying down blah blah blah"

Sweeping advances in combat resolution reads; "The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified , no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

Wouldn't Otherwise specified seem to be explicitly covered in codex necrons?
The 'Cron books says any models reduced to zero wounds or that would otherwise be removed from play. It seems to me that this is worded specifically to meet the criteria of what IS and ISN'T allowed for WBB.

So if WBB isn't an 'otherwise specified' ruling on how to handle sweeping advances with Necrons, what rule could possibly be considered to 'otherwise specify'?

SsevenN wrote:So if WBB isn't an 'otherwise specified' ruling on how to handle sweeping advances with Necrons, what rule could possibly be considered to 'otherwise specify'?

ATSKNF:
If Space Marines are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally.

THAT is what it means by "otherwise Specify". WBB does NOT say they can Ignore SA, so they cannot.

Well I'll accept it, but I don't like it.

Ok, fine, because people need the proof:

Page 40, 5th ed BRB wrote:If the winner's total is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance. The falling back unit is destroyed. We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

Page 43, 4th ed BGB wrote:If the winner's total is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance. The falling back unit is scattered. We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit(s) is removed immediately. No Invulnerable save or other special rule (such as the Necrons' We'll be Back special rule) can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

As you can see, other than the Semantics, the rule is the EXACT SAME RULE. It didn't work in 4th ed, it doesn't work in 5th Ed.

I tried the "I think" approach because I felt it would be more condusive to a balanced and polite discussion. Apparently I was wrong about something in my post, just not about what I had thought.

We can all agree that Sweeping Advance destroys the squad, and they are removed.

We'll Be Back tells you when a necron is reduced to 0 wounds or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, they stay on the table and are treated as 'battlefield debris' awaiting its WWB roll.

Do you see my point? No special rule is used to save or rescue them, they're dead. They will simply try to make themselves un-dead* when they get their WBB roll.

Also, since I'm pretty sure that we're talking 5th ed, what's listed in the 4th ed codex (keep in mind also, that ommission may have been intentional, to reflect a change in the rule) has absolutely no bearing. That'd be like trying to use a different rule from another army's codex to illustrate an incorrect assumption...oh wait....

*El oh el @ necromantic humor.

Do you see my point? No special rule is used to save or rescue them, they're dead. They will simply try to make themselves un-dead* when they get their WBB roll.

You put that much better than I did. a 'Destroyed' Necron is placed on it's side when it's dead and would otherwise be removed.

There is nothing in the context of the rulebook that says they should be outright removed, because dead necrons are placed lying down on the table, period, it's in their rules. The only things that would do that are CC attacks that ignore armor and guns w/ double the str of toughness.

We are not arguing you do anything out of context as to how it's written in codex Necrons. When a 'Cron Dies, it goes on its side, unless that WBB has been disallowed.

There is nothing written in the rulebook that would override their ability to WBB based off the wording of Sweeping advances.

You swept them, they die. Check.

Dead Necrons are placed on their side as battlefield debris unless their WBB were disallowed. Check

Necron player checks to see if another unit of the same type is within 6" that would allow for WBB. And takes the test as required.

See? There is no 'special rule' that keeps the necrons from dying, when they are swept, they ARE dead. They are just not "removed from play"

Sweeping Advance prevents them from even attempting WBB, because No Special Rule can save them unless specifically stated otherwise. It doesn't say the special rule has to work right away.

Also care to explain why the wording is the exact same as 4th edition? Perhaps because it is the same? Did WBB work in 4th edition?

RxGhost wrote:Also, since I'm pretty sure that we're talking 5th ed, what's listed in the 4th ed codex (keep in mind also, that ommission may have been intentional, to reflect a change in the rule) has absolutely no bearing. That'd be like trying to use a different rule from another army's codex to illustrate an incorrect assumption...oh wait....

I am just pointing out that you are wrong, because the wording is the EXACT SAME. The part in Parenthesis is a reminder, the actual rule is the same. As such, they work the same.

As much as this may shock everyone, I do know what I am talking about (divert your gaze just a little lower). I don't just blindly state what I "think", I state what the rules actually say.

I think (you like that) you should look up what "exact same" mean, because I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

And as previously stated, the change in the wording (oh, they changed it, so hilarious) from the sections that you quoted acutally removed the exception of WBB from the new version. This omission may in fact be intentional, given that wording of both 5th eds Sweeping Advance and the Necron Codex allow WBB.

I am becoming more and more convinced that you do not know what you're talking about, despite your giant wall of ego text quotes.

Also, I'm pretty sure that WBB 'otherwise states' what to do, we should probably follow its instructions.