Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

RxGhost wrote:I am becoming more and more convinced that you do not know what you're talking about, despite your giant wall of ego text quotes.

Says the person who's only posts to date have been to troll my answers. I am convinced! I have seen the light! </Sarcasm>

What part of "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over." is confusing you? Where in WBB or the Necron Codex does it say "this may be done despite Sweeping Advance" or "This applies even in cases of Sweeping Advance" or "If Necrons are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead follow the WBB rules". Please, show me.

If you can't, well I would assume that makes you wrong.

Nowhere in the Sweeping Advance says the special rule has to work right away.

Now, despite your trolling nature, I would actually like to have a Rules Debate. Please, stick to the rules debates rather than personal attacks, m'kay?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RxGhost wrote:Also, I'm pretty sure that WBB 'otherwise states' what to do, we should probably follow its instructions.

Well, as I have stated, you are wrong. WBB does not say it works against Sweeping Advance. Sweeping Advance requires a rule to specify it does work against Sweeping Advance, not against just dying. Ergo, it doesn't!

I liked that part in your last sentence, where you called me a troll and accused me of personal attacks at the same time, that was a nice touch. Your join date or post number have absolutly no bearing, to me; whether or not you choose to post incorrect information and call it rules is what matters.

As SsevenN and I have stated, we're not rewriting or reimagining things here. We're playing the game by the rules we're given, and we're trying to help other people understand those same rules.

If you want to stomp all over the yard and insult me and the other posters, that's fine too, it doesn't make your answer correct.

Now back to the debate:
I want to know why you think that WBB doesn't work against sweeping advance, and I'm gonna' need something more than "because 4th edition says so" because 5th edition doesn't say no anymore.

RxGhost wrote:I liked that part in your last sentence, where you called me a troll and accused me of personal attacks at the same time, that was a nice touch. Your join date or post number have absolutly no bearing, to me; whether or not you choose to post incorrect information and call it rules is what matters.

As SsevenN and I have stated, we're not rewriting or reimagining things here. We're playing the game by the rules we're given, and we're trying to help other people understand those same rules.

If you want to stomp all over the yard and insult me and the other posters, that's fine too, it doesn't make your answer correct.

The odd part is, I am not wrong. You have yet to show any part of WBB that says it can work against Sweeping Advance.

I on the other hand have shown Multiple times where it says it does not work, both from This edition and the EXACTLY SAME WORDED rule from a previous edition.

Nor have I "insulted" anyone. I accused you of Trolling my posts. A fresh Account and exclusively posting in this thread indicates that. You on the other hand, have accused me of not knowing what I am talking about, despite a track record of constant correctness. That is insulting.

So, yeah, you are re-imagining things. (Protip: It has a Hyphen)

Counter-Riposte tip: No, it doesn't have a hyphen.

You see, in my copy of the 5th edition rules, it does not say that sweeping advance ignores we'll be back. We'll be back says any model removed as a casualty is put on it's side and awaits the WBB roll. This rule is not ignored. The only time WBB is denied is if the model is killed in close combat with a weapon that allows no armor save or by an attack whose strength is double the model's toughness. Sweeping advance is neither of these. In addition, the only time you remove a necron who has become battlefield debris (like, if his squad had been sweeping advanced) is if he fails a We'll be back roll.

For them, the battle is over...but they'll be back!

RxGhost wrote:Counter-Riposte tip: No, it doesn't have a hyphen.

It does if you speak English.

So, are you going to bother defending your position or are you just going to continue the insults and trolling?

RxGhost wrote:Counter-Riposte tip: No, it doesn't have a hyphen.

You see, in my copy of the 5th edition rules, it does not say that sweeping advance ignores we'll be back. We'll be back says any model removed as a casualty is put on it's side and awaits the WBB roll. This rule is not ignored. The only time WBB is denied is if the model is killed in close combat with a weapon that allows no armor save or by an attack whose strength is double the model's toughness. Sweeping advance is neither of these. In addition, the only time you remove a necron who has become battlefield debris (like, if his squad had been sweeping advanced) is if he fails a We'll be back roll.

For them, the battle is over...but they'll be back!

The problem with this is that you don't seem to be reading what Gwar! is writing. There are two rules in contention here: WBB and Sweeping Advance. As Gwar! has pointed out, Sweeping Advance (pg 40) does say that NO special rule can save them. As WBB is a special rule that would potentially save them, it would seem that Sweeping Advance negates that in its very wording.

The only RaW defense I see possible is that codex rules trump the general rules. However, since the general rule specifically negates special rules, I think you're out of luck.

The issue is that you keep reading the WBB rule and ignoring the Sweeping Advance rules. It's laid out pretty clearly. You may be able to make an argument to the contrary, but you are NOT making that argument. You are repeating your point which only addresses one rule, as opposed to both.

Lucidicide wrote:The problem with this is that you don't seem to be reading what Gwar! is writing.

Don't Worry, I get that a lot. It seems people don't think I do my research before posting.

Lucidicide wrote:There are two rules in contention here: WBB and Sweeping Advance. As Gwar! has pointed out, Sweeping Advance (pg 40) does say that NO special rule can save them. As WBB is a special rule that would potentially save them, it would seem that Sweeping Advance negates that in its very wording.

Correct

Lucidicide wrote:The only RaW defense I see possible is that codex rules trump the general rules. However, since the general rule specifically negates special rules, I think you're out of luck.

Codex does trump rulebook, however the rule for Sweeping Advance Specifically states that the codex MUST Specify it works against sweeping advance, or it doesn't. Yes, it is THAT simple.

Gwar!

My point is the WBB rule is from codex Necrons (codex>rulebook), the circumstances for when it's allowed are laid out crystal clear.
Necrons that are reduced to 0 wounds or would normally be removed, are laid on their side, and take WBB when allowed.

WBB and sweeping advances don't interact at all. When a sweeping advance is preformed on a necron unit, every thing takes place as it would with a normal army. The difference is necron models that would normaly be removed, are laid on the side. Because codex Necrons says units that would normally be removed, are not.

WBB doesn't 'save' the crons from sweeping advance. The sweeping advanced is preformed as normal, the models are removed, in the case off crons with WBB, the are placed on their side.

I don't see at all how Sweeping advance affects the actions taken by a necron player following the RAW in his codex or the rulebook.

BRB says sweeping advances remove the models, Necron codexs says models that would be removed are laid on their side.

JMHO

SsevenN wrote:Gwar!

My point is the WBB rule is from codex Necrons (codex>rulebook), the circumstances for when it's allowed are laid out crystal clear.
Necrons that are reduced to 0 wounds or would normally be removed, are laid on their side, and take WBB when allowed.

WBB and sweeping advances don't interact at all. When a sweeping advance is preformed on a necron unit, every thing takes place as it would with a normal army. The difference is necron models that would normaly be removed, are laid on the side. Because codex Necrons says units that would normally be removed, are not.

WBB doesn't 'save' the crons from sweeping advance. The sweeping advanced is preformed as normal, the models are removed, in the case off crons with WBB, the are placed on their side.

I don't see at all how Sweeping advance affects the actions taken by a necron player following the RAW in his codex or the rulebook.

BRB says sweeping advances remove the models, Necron codexs says models that would be removed are laid on their side.

JMHO

Re-read Sweeping Advance.

"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over." Does WBB specifically allow you to ignore this? No, It doesn't. So the Necrons are Removed, and WBB does not replace the effect.

The BRB is quite explicit as to what is lost (damaged/destroyed/killed/...). SA denies saves or any other "special" rule that can rescue them (page 40 of the BRB).

The WBB rule is defined as a special rule on page 13 of the Codex: Necron. Further the rule does not provide any override to Sweeping Advance.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The BRB is quite explicit as to what is lost (damaged/destroyed/killed/...). SA denies saves or any other "special" rule that can rescue them (page 40 of the BRB).

The WBB rule is defined as a special rule on page 13 of the Codex: Necron. Further the rule does not provide any override to Sweeping Advance.

Finally someone who makes sense! Apart from, you know, me, who has been saying exactly this since Page 1.

Gwar! wrote:Ok, fine, because people need the proof:

Page 40, 5th ed BRB wrote:If the winner's total is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance. The falling back unit is destroyed. We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

Page 43, 4th ed BGB wrote:If the winner's total is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance. The falling back unit is scattered. We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit(s) is removed immediately. No Invulnerable save or other special rule (such as the Necrons' We'll be Back special rule) can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

Ass you can see, other than the Semantics, the rule is the EXACT SAME RULE. It didn't work in 4th ed, it doesn't work in 5th Ed. Live with it. If you don;t like it, go back to playing chess.

Well, it's said right in the WBB rules in the necron codex that if sweeping advanced, a necron unit does not get a WBB, and are immedately removed.

I don't understand the confusion here...

and also, Terminators can't even sweeping advance, why god are we having this discussion?

And you would be correct, except that the necron codex doesn't say that at all.

I could say this in really big letters, but it wouldn't really help. So I'll just do it normal style, 'cause that's how I do.

We'll Be Back is a special rules that states, very specifically, what is to be done in the event of models with the Necron special rule are reduced to zero woulds or otherwise removed from the table as a casualty.

If that doesn't constitute "unless otherwise specified" then nothing does.

Gwar!, I wish I could say it's been fun, and it has. Your insulting and arrogant attitude has really made my half hour. But now I must return to my world. But don't worry, I'll be back. Maybe then you'll be able to admit that you're wrong to yourself, if not to others; baby steps, sweetie, baby steps...you'll get there someday, I believe in you.

RxGhost wrote:We'll Be Back is a special rules that states, very specifically, what is to be done in the event of models with the Necron special rule are reduced to zero woulds or otherwise removed from the table as a casualty.

And, YET AGAIN, I quote:
The falling back unit is destroyed. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over.

WBB is a special rule that could save them. WBB does not have a Specific mention of Sweeping Advance, unlike ATSKNF, which specifically states it stops Sweeping Advance.
Still confused or would you rather continue the Insulting tone and personal attacks?

Okay, okay, I have to say one more thing before I let this go for good.

You're still wrong, and I think I realized why you think it.. You feel that ATSKNF is the template by which sweeping advance is ignored because it specifically mentions sweeping advance, and as such, no other rule that doesn't single out sweeping advance as an exception should provide any protection from it...but to apply that as a rubric for any other rule is bad mojo, and incorrect.

What I'm saying, (and is the correct way to play the game, you see, since I'm playing the rules as they're written in the book, which I can only assume is the intent of the authors since that's how they wrote it) is that We'll Be Back still triggers when the models die, regardless of how that happens to occur, after all, We'll Be Back still happens when a model gets killed by a lasgun, right? But it doesn't say in We'll Be Back that models who are killed by lasgun get We'll Be Back so they must not get it, right? Ooh, ooh, what about bolters? WBB doesn't say they get WBB if they're killed by bolters so they must not get it then, too! I could go on, but I want to finish my pretzel before it gets cold.

Wait, there was a second thing I wanted to say, so I guess that makes me a liar. It's totally rad how you like, live on the forum so I get a response really quick. Like, you had quoted and responded in like 2 minutes of my last post, even though I've been off for a few hours. Totally rad.

You are ignoring the Sweeping Advance rules. WBB says it occurs if a Model is Killed. Sweeping Advance says ignore that rule unless it says to Ignore Sweeping Advance.

You still have not explained how the rule which was IDENTICALLY WORDED in 4th ed (and didn't allow WBB) allows WBB in 5th. Neither WBB or SA has changed, so why would the result?

I just want to add in something for the "They can still WBB" argument:

Necron Codex, PG13, WBB, Paragraph 3 wrote:A Necron cannot self-repair if it was destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armor Save or any weapon whose Strength is twice the Toughness of the Necron concerned. This can be over-ridden by the Resurrection Orb (see the Necron Armoury). Additionally, the self-repair ability only works if the wounded Necron is within 6" of another model of the same type, although not necessarily of the same unit.

According to this, these are the only ways to not get WBB:
-2XToughness/ID/Ignore Armor Saves in CC (overridden by res orb)
-No models within 6"

According to the paragraph above, nothing else will disallow WBB, IF both a res orb and another model within 6" (or a tomb spider) are in range. So in this case, why wouldn't they get WBB after sweeping advance, if both the above requirements are met?

(NOTE: I play that they don't get WBB after a SA, but I just wanted to point this out to find out 'why')

Eight Ball wrote:According to the paragraph above, nothing else will disallow WBB,

You DID notice the Big Scary Passage in the Rulebook saying "no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over"?

What part of that is confusing? The rule is Clearly stating it won't work. Does WBB say "ONLY IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES AND NEVER IN ANY OTHER CASE EVER EVER!?" Does WBB say "IT EVEN WORKS AGAINST SWEEPING ADVANCE!"

No to both. Therefore, it does not work.

Rx, no, WBB does not save a unit from Sweeping Advance. They dropped the mention of WBB in the SA rule because they thought that saying no special rule can save them unless otherwise specified was enough.
So here's the question you ask yourself. Does WBB mention Sweeping Advance BY NAME and specifically say that WBB protects the model/unit from SA? If the answer is no (which we all know it is), then the rule does not have any effect and Sweeping Advnace kicks in, removing the unit from the board at that time. So when WBB time rolls around, the models aren't even there. Sorry guy, but that's the way it's worked for years (all through 4th) and that's the way it still works in 5th.

Eight Ball wrote:I just want to add in something for the "They can still WBB" argument:

Necron Codex, PG13, WBB, Paragraph 3 wrote:A Necron cannot self-repair if it was destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armor Save or any weapon whose Strength is twice the Toughness of the Necron concerned. This can be over-ridden by the Resurrection Orb (see the Necron Armoury). Additionally, the self-repair ability only works if the wounded Necron is within 6" of another model of the same type, although not necessarily of the same unit.

According to this, these are the only ways to not get WBB:
-2XToughness/ID/Ignore Armor Saves in CC (overridden by res orb)
-No models within 6"

According to the paragraph above, nothing else will disallow WBB, IF both a res orb and another model within 6" (or a tomb spider) are in range. So in this case, why wouldn't they get WBB after sweeping advance, if both the above requirements are met?

(NOTE: I play that they don't get WBB after a SA, but I just wanted to point this out to find out 'why')

I'm confused as to why you think "A Necron cannot self-repair if..." is the same as "The only way to not get WBB is..." The Necron codex lists two possibilities where a unit does not get WBB, but it certainly doesn't say there is no other possibility.

I see both sides of the argument here, but in my reading of the rules it seems clear that SA does not allow WBB.

WBB does imply that there are only a few situations where you would not get WBB. However, the rules for SA requires it to be SPECIFIED that they would not be removed. WBB does not specifically isolate the SA case. The lack of such a clause shows that WBB is not allowed after SA.

BTW Gwar! I don't know why you're quoting the 4th edition rulebook or the space marine codex. We're not playing househammer here...

Gwar! wrote:

Eight Ball wrote:According to the paragraph above, nothing else will disallow WBB,

You DID notice the Big Scary Passage in the Rulebook saying "no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over"?

What part of that is confusing? The rule is Clearly stating it won't work. Does WBB say "ONLY IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES AND NEVER IN ANY OTHER CASE EVER EVER!?" Does WBB say "IT EVEN WORKS AGAINST SWEEPING ADVANCE!"

No to both. Therefore, it does not work.

Gwar, the first part of that passage is "Unless otherwise specified."

The Necron codex fits the bill of "otherwise specified."

NO, THE NECRON CODEX DOES NOT LIST EVERY INSTANCE WHERE WBB OCCURS. It gives an inclusive rule on what to do. Seems pretty clear to me? The BRB defers to codexes where they are more specific, and the necron codex is more specific here.


*EDIT* And Trasvi, codexes are not written to be exclusive, they are written to be inclusive.

IE, a codex is not written as, "This rule applies to A, B, C, F, R, Y, Z" Instead, it's written as "This rule applies to everything except A, B." Arguing that a codex doesn't specifically note that it allows a rule so it can't be used is a faulty argument because it was written inclusively.

IE, "This applies to EVERYTHING except A and B." That's the wording here. You trying to argue that it also doesn't apply to "SA" doesn't work because the working is explicitly inclusive. EVERYTHING except A and B. It doesn't need to refer to every rule that it allows; it included it as "EVERYTHING except A and B."

Dash, SA asked for it to be specifically mentioned. Otherwise, the part where it says "No other special Rule" wouldn't mean anything.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Gwar, the first part of that passage is "Unless otherwise specified."

The Necron codex fits the bill of "otherwise specified."

No it doesn't because it doesn't specify that WBB works even agains SA. For it to work agains SA it would have to say specifically that WBB works agains SA because, you know, that's what specifying something means...

Dashofpepper wrote:
NO, THE NECRON CODEX DOES NOT LIST EVERY INSTANCE WHERE WBB OCCURS. It gives an inclusive rule on what to do. Seems pretty clear to me? The BRB defers to codexes where they are more specific, and the necron codex is more specific here.

Again no it doesn't, the BRB specifically (there's that word again), says that special rules can't rescue the squad from beeing destroyed by SA. What is the WBB rule? Thats right, its a special rule, so it doesn't work against SA.

To reiderate what has now been said in the previous two posts.

No special rule can save them means: SA Ignores special rules that do not say I work on SA.

The "unless other specified" is GW's usual conditional to allow them to create some kind of super recovery ability later on and prevent the flack they got when 'ignore invulnerable saves' first showed up. (how can you ignore something I always get to take?)

Mars.Techpriest wrote:To reiderate what has now been said in the previous two posts.

No special rule can save them means: SA Ignores special rules that do not say I work on SA.

The "unless other specified" is GW's usual conditional to allow them to create some kind of super recovery ability later on and prevent the flack they got when 'ignore invulnerable saves' first showed up. (how can you ignore something I always get to take?)

It also lets things like ATSKNF work.

I want to direct everyone's attention to the top of page 13 of the Codex: Necron book.

It says in bold caps "NECRON SPECIAL RULES". WBB is by definition a special rule, thus, it is directly affected by the SA rule. Since the WBB does not exempt itself from the SA rule, it is denied by said rule.

It really is that simple.

Yup, my interpretation of the rule was incorrect.

Thanks for the explanation Gwar! and TheGreatAvatar.

I gracefully (as possible) bow out.