And people say America is intolerant

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**ShumaGorath**

Sarkozy speaks out against burka

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8112821.stm

Mr Sarkozy was speaking at a special session of parliament in Versailles
French President Nicolas Sarkozy has spoken out strongly against the wearing of the burka by Muslim women in France.
In a major policy speech, he said the burka - a garment covering women from head to toe - reduced them to servitude and undermined their dignity.
Mr Sarkozy also gave his backing to the establishment of a parliamentary commission to look at whether to ban the wearing of burkas in public.
In 2004, France banned the Islamic headscarves in its state schools.
'Not welcome'
"We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," Mr Sarkozy told a special session of parliament in Versailles.
"That is not the idea that the French republic has of women's dignity.
"The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience. It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic," the French president said.

Find out about different styles of Muslim headscarf

In graphics
But he stressed that France "must not fight the wrong battle", saying that "the Muslim religion must be respected as much as other religions" in the country.
A group of a cross-party lawmakers is already calling for a special inquiry into whether Muslim women who wear the burka is undermining French secularism, the BBC's Emma Jane Kirby in Paris says.
The lawmakers also want to examine whether women who wear the veil are doing so voluntarily or are being forced to cover themselves, our correspondent says.
Mr Sarkozy's speech was the first a French president has made to parliament since the 19th century - made possible by a constitutional amendment he introduced last year.
Later on Monday, Mr Sarkozy was expected to meet the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifah al-Thani.
In 2004, France banned the Islamic headscarf and other conspicuous religious symbols from public schools, triggering heated debate in the country and abroad.
Members of the French government have been divided over the issue.
The immigration minister, Eric Besson, has said a full ban will only "create tensions" while the junior minister for human rights, Rama Yade, said she would accept a ban if it was aimed at protecting women forced to wear the burka.
France's official Muslim council has criticised the debate.
"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," said Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion.
France is home to about five million Muslims.

Wasn't the point of the Burka to create a dynamic where women are treated as their mind and capabilities warrant and not their looks? The whole point of it was to avoid promiscuity and exploitation. Even if you disagree with that, banning them in public areas is ridiculous and unwarranted considering how harmless they are.

**halonachos**

Yes they are harmless, the thing about it though is that most look for the possibilities. Its possible that a person can get an ID with the burka on it and anyone can use said ID as long as they have a burka or know the name on the ID card.

The point of the burka is not to prevent exploitation of women though, its to prevent them from seeing and to keep the looks of the wife to the husband alone. Seeing as though women are their property and they don't want anyone else to see them.

**ShumaGorath**

The point of the burka is not to prevent exploitation of women though, its to prevent them from seeing and to keep the looks of the wife to the husband alone. Seeing as though women are their property and they don't want anyone else to see them.

Wasn't the burka created when the prophet saw a harem and decreed that that is not how women should act and be treated? They don't exactly obscure vision considering they are a headwrap that leaves the eyes totally unobscured without a veil (which is not a required part of the dress). Aren't they also required before marriage? I'm not sure you know what they are about.

Hijab or ḥijāb (حجاب, pronounced [ħiˈdʒæːb] ) is the Arabic word for "curtain / cover" (noun), based on the root حجب meaning "to cover, to veil, to shelter". In popular use, hijab means "head cover and modest dress for women" among Muslims, which most Islamic legal systems define as covering everything except the face and hands in public.[1][2] According to Islamic scholarship, hijab is given the wider meaning of modesty, privacy, and morality;[3] the word for a headscarf or veil used in the Koran is khimār (خمار) and not hijab. Still another definition is metaphysical, where al-hijab "refers to the veil which separates man or the world from God."[2]
Since the 1970s, hijab has emerged as a symbol of Islamic consciousness. Muslims differ as to how "hijab dress" should be enforced, particularly over the role of religious police that are enforcing hijab in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

You're thinking of the Chadri which is a type of Burka invented later and then banned.

The full Afghan chadri covers the wearer's entire face except for a small region about the eyes, which is covered by a concealing net or grille. This type of covering is also common in North Western Pakistan close to the Afghan border. It is frequently referred to as "Shuttlecock Burqa" in Pakistan to differentiate it from other Burqa styles and due to its resemblance with a badminton shuttlecock. Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Indian burqas may expose the face or eyes. The garment is usually sewn from light materials, and requires many metres of material. Blue is a favourite colour for chadris. The cap from which the material hangs may be decorated with embroidery.
The chadri was created by one of Afghanistan's rulers trying to stop anyone from seeing his wives' faces. He came up with the chadri, which became a sign of an upper class citizen; however, as times changed, the new government decided that chadris weren't modern enough and banned them. The upper class people then gave them to their servants. The chadris in those days were made out of silk and the mesh at the front was lace.[citation needed]
Before the Taliban took power in Afghanistan, the chadri was infrequently worn in cities. While they were in power, the Taliban treatment of women required the wearing of a chadri in public. Officially, it is not required under the present Afghan regime, but local warlords still enforce it in southern Afghanistan. Burqa use in the remainder of Afghanistan is variable and is observed to be gradually declining in Kabul. Due to political instability in these areas, women who might not otherwise be inclined to wear the chadri must do so as a matter of personal safety.

Learn to seperate taliban extremists and the other billion muslins. They have different views on a lot of subjects. You are quite right about the chadri, and about extremist groups use and views of Hijab codes, but it's hardly universal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab_by_country

**halonachos**

Though hath never read "The Kite Runner" or more importantly "A Thousand Splendid Suns"? the suns is a better book about pre-taliban life in afghanistan.

Have you ever known one who has worn a burka? I'll you what, an Iranian immigrant hated the darned things because they couldn't really see. It cuts off peripheral vision and is dangerous.

Its not about protecting the women most of the time, its about keeping their looks privately to the husband and prevents any sort of creativity of dress.

I have learned to seperate taliban extremists from other muslims, but you are saying that ONLY talibans enforce the wearing of burkas and that to wear a burka you must be under control of a dictatorship or something. And it doesn't say anywhere that they were banned, only that it isn't enforced in certain regions. It depends on the husband in cases in which the taliban don't exist.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know though, I may just start wearing a ski mask when I get my license picture taken. Its the same basic concept hidden behind the armor of religious practice where it can't be hurt.

**youngblood**

America is intolerant.

**halonachos**

You better believe it buddy.

**ShumaGorath**

Have you ever known one who has worn a burka? I'll you what, an Iranian immigrant hated the darned things because they couldn't really see. It cuts off peripheral vision and is dangerous.

Yeah, those look really hard to see out of.

Though hath never read "The Kite Runner" or more importantly "A Thousand Splendid Suns"? the suns is a better book about pre-taliban life in afghanistan.

Afghanistan has never been a good representation of the muslim religion. It is a small, sparsely populated, and extreme region that for most of its history was comprised of tribes that proved difficult to integrate into a nation state.

Its not about protecting the women most of the time, its about keeping their looks privately to the husband and prevents any sort of creativity of dress.

Strange then, that most countries where they are popular hold no reference to a requirement of marriage. Hard to protect your looks for your man when you don't have one.

I have learned to seperate taliban extremists from other muslims, but you are saying that ONLY talibans enforce the wearing of burkas and that to wear a burka you must be under control of a dictatorship or something.

I'm pretty sure you've only convinced yourself you have done that. Referencing afghanistan as a bellweather of muslim fashion proves little more than the fact that you base your opinion of the region on one of it's most troubled areas.

**youngblood**

I think that people would begin to misunderstand america if we accepted people. France is just following in our footsteps. Sorry frenchies!!!

**avantgarde**

I'm gonna chalk this up to Sarkozy being a racist douche and hiding it under the burka of gender equality.

Sarkozy wrote:“Africans have never really entered history. They have never really launched themselves into the future. In a world where nature controls everything, man has remained immobile in the middle of an unshakable order where everything is determined. There is no room neither for human endeavour, nor for the idea of progress… the African peasant only knows the renewal of time, rhythmed by the endless repetition of the same gestures and the same words. In this imaginary world where everything starts over and over again, there is no place for human adventure or the idea of progress.”

**warpcrafter**

He's just trying to drag Muslims out of the middle ages. Somebody has to do it.

**youngblood**

warpcrafter wrote:He's just trying to drag Muslims out of the middle ages. Somebody has to do it.

If I were you, I would immediately vacate your building and scan the sky for airplanes.

**BrookM**

youngblood wrote:
warpcrafter wrote:He's just trying to drag Muslims out of the middle ages. Somebody has to do it.

If I were you, I would immediately vacate your building and scan the sky for airplanes.

In his case it might be better to watch out for camels with large boxes strapped to their backs.

**Kilkrazy**

ShumaGorath wrote:

Sarkozy speaks out against burka

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8112821.stm

Mr Sarkozy was speaking at a special session of parliament in Versailles
French President Nicolas Sarkozy has spoken out strongly against the wearing of the burka by Muslim women in France.
In a major policy speech, he said the burka - a garment covering women from head to toe - reduced them to servitude and undermined their dignity.
Mr Sarkozy also gave his backing to the establishment of a parliamentary commission to look at whether to ban the wearing of burkas in public.
In 2004, France banned the Islamic headscarves in its state schools.
'Not welcome'
"We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," Mr Sarkozy told a special session of parliament in Versailles.
"That is not the idea that the French republic has of women's dignity.
"The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience. It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic," the French president said.

Find out about different styles of Muslim headscarf

In graphics
But he stressed that France "must not fight the wrong battle", saying that "the Muslim religion must be respected as much as other religions" in the country.
A group of a cross-party lawmakers is already calling for a special inquiry into whether Muslim women who wear the burka is undermining French secularism, the BBC's Emma Jane Kirby in Paris says.
The lawmakers also want to examine whether women who wear the veil are doing so voluntarily or are being forced to cover themselves, our correspondent says.
Mr Sarkozy's speech was the first a French president has made to parliament since the 19th century - made possible by a constitutional amendment he introduced last year.
Later on Monday, Mr Sarkozy was expected to meet the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifah al-Thani.
In 2004, France banned the Islamic headscarf and other conspicuous religious symbols from public schools, triggering heated debate in the country and abroad.
Members of the French government have been divided over the issue.
The immigration minister, Eric Besson, has said a full ban will only "create tensions" while the junior minister for human rights, Rama Yade, said she would accept a ban if it was aimed at protecting women forced to wear the burka.
France's official Muslim council has criticised the debate.
"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," said Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion.
France is home to about five million Muslims.

Wasn't the point of the Burka to create a dynamic where women are treated as their mind and capabilities warrant and not their looks? The whole point of it was to avoid promiscuity and exploitation. Even if you disagree with that, banning them in public areas is ridiculous and unwarranted considering how harmless they are.

I'm sure that's what go-ahead clerics would have you believe, but no, it's all about subjugating women. The keener a country is on a heavy burka, the less rights and education its women get in other ways too.

It's a culture clash like honour killings and arranged marriages.

I'm not sure banning them will work though. It's easy to show that honour killings and forced marriages are against human rights. It's not so easy to say that women can't wear a headscarf or a burka if they want to.

The Queen often wears a headscarf.

BTW I don't think people say America is intolerant. There are intolerant sections within American society, maybe.

**youngblood**

Intolerance is awfully subjective too.

**halonachos**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Have you ever known one who has worn a burka? I'll you what, an Iranian immigrant hated the darned things because they couldn't really see. It cuts off peripheral vision and is dangerous.

Yeah, those look really hard to see out of.

I do believe that those are head scarves, not burkas.

So you honestly believe that I don't know the differences between muslims and extremists? Its simple, extremists kill and most muslims don't. Its when it comes to religion that it gets messed up for me. I think its Shiite that believe that the muslim leader should be a descendent of muhammad and sunni believe that it can be anyone of the faith. A palestinian told me that. He married his second cousin and doesn't want her to wear burkas, we exchange gifts every now and then. I know a police chief in Iraq who was grazed on the neck by .45 calibur round from an extremist. I also know a christian in lebanon who wants to move to america because christians aren't very popular in lebanon. There's an arab guy who own the quiznos near my house, he and his family run the place and are really nice people.

But not all people who make their wives wear burkas are extremists, they could just be a-holes, they come in many varieties including american.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

youngblood wrote:Intolerance is awfully subjective too.

Everyone's intolerant of something. Americans don't like eating dogs, Indians don't like eating cows, etc.

**Frazzled**

halonachos wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Have you ever known one who has worn a burka? I'll you what, an Iranian immigrant hated the darned things because they couldn't really see. It cuts off peripheral vision and is dangerous.

Go GRRL Power! Free yourselves from your oppressor. Your government is becoming a military dictatorship. Free yourselves.

**halonachos**

Frazzled, I think you quoted it wrong.

**warpcrafter**

youngblood wrote:
warpcrafter wrote:He's just trying to drag Muslims out of the middle ages. Somebody has to do it.

If I were you, I would immediately vacate your building and scan the sky for airplanes.

BrookM wrote:
youngblood wrote:
warpcrafter wrote:He's just trying to drag Muslims out of the middle ages. Somebody has to do it.

If I were you, I would immediately vacate your building and scan the sky for airplanes.
In his case it might be better to watch out for camels with large boxes strapped to their backs.

Kansas isn't important enough to bomb. No potential for massive media exploitation. Besides, they'd have to get through the millions of crazy rednecks first.

**J.Black**

ShumaGorath wrote:

Wasn't the burka created when the prophet saw a harem and decreed that that is not how women should act and be treated? They don't exactly obscure vision considering they are a headwrap that leaves the eyes totally unobscured without a veil (which is not a required part of the dress). Aren't they also required before marriage? I'm not sure you know what they are about.

The Burqa isn't even mebtioned in the Qur'an, the prophet simply said that both sexes should dress modestly in public. I guess thats where those long robes a lot of muslim men wear come from, and i suppose the original intention of the prophet was to stop people feeling unequal just because they couldn't afford to buy opulent robes like some others would have been able to.

The intention is the problem though, as it is translated very differently by scholars of the subject.

I do have to wonder what the prophet was doing in a harem though, seeing as it was forbidden for men to enter them. The big perv.

**BrookM**

J.Black wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:

Wasn't the burka created when the prophet saw a harem and decreed that that is not how women should act and be treated? They don't exactly obscure vision considering they are a headwrap that leaves the eyes totally unobscured without a veil (which is not a required part of the dress). Aren't they also required before marriage? I'm not sure you know what they are about.

The Burqa isn't even mebtioned in the Qur'an, the prophet simply said that both sexes should dress modestly in public. I guess thats where those long robes a lot of muslim men wear come from, and i suppose the original intention of the prophet was to stop people feeling unequal just because they couldn't afford to buy opulent robes like some others would have been able to.

The intention is the problem though, as it is translated very differently by scholars of the subject.

I do have to wonder what the prophet was doing in a harem though, seeing as it was forbidden for men to enter them. The big perv.

He was probably caught in the act and improvised on the spot.

**Frazzled**

This thread has been reported.

racial/religious jokes are not appropriate to Dakka.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled freak out.

**Orkeosaurus**

Sorry Frazzled, that was my bad.

**Frazzled**

Orkeosaurus wrote:Sorry Frazzled, that was my bad.

Now you must pay. Time for... THE HAMMER!

**George Spiggott**

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, those look really hard to see out of.

That's a headscarf. When he talks about a burka he's talking about one of these.

The burka is a fashion and is not required by the Qu'ran.

**J.Black**

BrookM wrote:He was probably caught in the act and improvised on the spot.

Ha, i can just imagine...

"And lo, the prophet did lift the bottom corner of the heavy curtain to gaze upon the contents of the dark and forbidden room. And he saw that it was good. But he did feel a hand upon his collar, and the words 'What's your game sunshine?' were spake.

'Verily i was just tying my shoelaces and the wind moved the curtain' quoth the prophet 'But i have to say, living in such darkness does your skintone no favours, thou remind me of a NIN concert i did once attend. If you insist on these conditions, you should drape yourselves in curtains all the time to prevent sunburn, skin cancer, and things of that nature' he continued.

And as the hand on his collar was joined by another hand bearing a stout stick the prophet did proclaim 'I should point ot that i'm channeling God at the moment and that any transgressions upon my person will result fire and brimstone upon your person'.

And the stick was dropped, and thus the maidens would wear curtains for ever more."

**Ahtman**

warpcrafter wrote:Kansas isn't important enough to bomb. No potential for massive media exploitation. Besides, they'd have to get through the millions of crazy rednecks first.

A lot of food is grown in Kansas. Humans need food to survive. Removing a large source of food may be problematic to the people that rely on it.

**dogma**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Afghanistan has never been a good representation of the muslim religion. It is a small, sparsely populated, and extreme region that for most of its history was comprised of tribes that proved difficult to integrate into a nation state.

This.

Calling the religion in Afghanistan Islam is about as much of a stretch as calling Mormons Christian (no offense intended, its just too different to be bundled in). The Afghan faith (and I say this knowing several Afghans personally) has far more in common with the blood cults that originated there than it does with the Islam of the Koran.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

George Spiggott wrote:
The burka is a fashion and is not required by the Qu'ran.

Truth. The Koran mentions only 'modest dress' and requires it of both men, and women.

**sebster**

Yep, the Koran mentions modest dress, and this is interpreted by different regions in different ways. It's really no surprise that extremely conservative groups with a major fixation on women and the horrors of sex, such as the Sauds and the Taliban, use this to enforce strict dress codes.

It is also no great surprise that Western conservatives fixate entirely on the extreme dress codes enforced in a few places, and confuse clothing such as the burqa with headscarves and other items of moderate dress. This then leads them to make ridiculous comments about the entirety of a faith being 'in the middle ages'.

Then you get a guy like Sarkozy, who is basically just a douche. Probably less of a douche all around than Chirac was, but it's debatable. Anyway, being a douche politician in a country with troubles with its immigrant population, he's choosing an inflammatory issue to fire up the reactionary right wing. Rather than, you know, solving the underlying problems of slums and unemployment.

**Deadshane1**

Burkas are sexy.

**warpcrafter**

Ahtman wrote:
warpcrafter wrote:Kansas isn't important enough to bomb. No potential for massive media exploitation. Besides, they'd have to get through the millions of crazy rednecks first.

A lot of food is grown in Kansas. Humans need food to survive. Removing a large source of food may be problematic to the people that rely on it.

It's good to know that somebody thinks us hicks in the great unwashed land between New York and Los Angeles are good for something.