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Praise the emperor!

I played my first "big" game against a friend of mine yesterday, around 630 points (we don't have much more ). However, we got into one situation that somehow made us both ponder a bit if we played it right...

...I played marines, he played IG. My Cybot shot off his sentinel's PC. After that, that sentinel managed to avoid getting shot by my ML and stumbled into close combat with five of my marines.

The problem with this fight was: The sentinel, with its one attack, wasn't able to kill a marine in about five to six rounds (we played "till everything is dead", while the marines, only armed with krak grenades and nothing else useful, weren't able to take that thing finally down. (AV12 sentinel)

This was somehow ridiculous. Whole infantry platoons marched past this fight, because they weren't allowed to shoot in...we both looked for a rule that allowed a unit to free-willingly brake from CC, but found nothing. There is this USR, but that doesn't apply to marines or sentinels, so...

...what are we overlooking? Do the sentinel and the marines have to fight their endless struggle, until a marine rolls three 6's in a row (6 to hit, 6 to glance, 6-->4 to immobilize-->kill, 1/216 chance) ?

Thanks in advance,
Witzkatz

Post scriptum: around 20 guardsmen and kasrkin joined the CC later out of boredom. However, the four marines and their captain, who finally had something to maim and kill, managed to slaughter everyone of them or scare them away into retreat. SPAZE MUHREENS HURR!

Unfortunately yes, you are correct.

This is why Powerfists are invaluable.

Cryonicleech wrote:Unfortunately yes, you are correct.

This is why Powerfists are invaluable.

QFT

Erk. Thanks for your answers.

Well, I guess I'll just give my captain and my sergeant melterbombs to avoid such situations in the future. And a relic blade, for my captain has, unfortunately, no powerfist.

I have a question for strange close combats. Check the following poorly drawn diagram.



The table:
(Defiler)---------GauntsGauntsGauntsGauntsGauntsGauntsGauntsGaunts------------(Defiler)


Both defilers assault the squad of gaunts. There were 24, strung out in two rows of 12. So after assault moves...
(Defiler)GauntsGauntsGauntsGauntsGauntsGauntsGauntsGaunts(Defiler)

Here's the question. For the "defenders react" pile-in move.

Do they pile-in two different directions making a huge gap in the midde?
(Defiler)GauntsGaunts-----------Gaunts Gaunts(Defiler)
If so, does this leave the gaunts out of coherency? Does that impact how wounds are dealt/distributed?

Do they pile-in one direction?
(Defiler)GauntsGauntsGaunts----------------(Defiler)
If so, does that mean the other defiler can't attack?



This occurred in a game I played. After asking all nearby people and looking over the book we couldn't figure it out. We talked about it a bit more and we came to an on-the-spot agreement which was to move the defilers in. Then for me to make no pile-in move and fight the combat with my gaunts positioned as they were.

Any insight? Can Gwar's super powers aid us here?

Gandair wrote:Any insight? Can Gwar's super powers aid us here?

Yes, they can.

The procedure for Moving Models into assault Via Defenders react takes place only after ALL Assaulting Models have made their moves, do you would end up with the 2nd diagram there.

After that you must follow the rules for Moving Assaulting models. This means you must move as many into BTB while keeping Coherency, as per page 34.

Don't you need to maximise how many gaunts are in BTB, and also maximise how many are in combat (2" of BTB)?
Also, coherency must be maintained by the gaunts during this Defenders React move.

BlackSpike wrote:Don't you need to maximise how many gaunts are in BTB, and also maximise how many are in combat (2" of BTB)?
Also, coherency must be maintained by the gaunts during this Defenders React move.

Yes and yes, which is why I said "After that you must follow the rules for Moving Assaulting models".

The Order of Priority is:
Stay In Coherency
Get into BTB with enemies not in BTB
Get into BTB with Enemies already in BTB
Get within 2" of a Friendly Model in BTB
Stay In Coherency (again)

That question came up in the big CC I had in my game, too. Five Space Marines and three different enemy units - now, when each of the enemy units has done its attack, do the marines retaliate ONCE or against all? I was quite sure it was against all single attacks, but wasn't able to find the exact rule.

Witzkatz wrote:That question came up in the big CC I had in my game, too. Five Space Marines and three different enemy units - now, when each of the enemy units has done its attack, do the marines retaliate ONCE or against all? I was quite sure it was against all single attacks, but wasn't able to find the exact rule.

You Know all CC is done in Initiative order, regardless of whose turn it is? And each marine will make one attack against whoever the Controller decides to attack, as per page 41

The initiative order is known to me, yes. Just reread page 41 and came to the same conclusion. I'm slowly absorbing all the rules.

Thanks for the help!

Witzkatz wrote:The initiative order is known to me, yes. Just reread page 41 and came to the same conclusion. I'm slowly absorbing all the rules.

Thanks for the help!

No worries. Glad to Help.

Gwar! wrote:

BlackSpike wrote:Don't you need to maximise how many gaunts are in BTB, and also maximise how many are in combat (2" of BTB)?
Also, coherency must be maintained by the gaunts during this Defenders React move.

Yes and yes, which is why I said "After that you must follow the rules for Moving Assaulting models".

The Order of Priority is:
Stay In Coherency
Get into BTB with enemies not in BTB
Get into BTB with Enemies already in BTB
Get within 2" of a Friendly Model in BTB
Stay In Coherency (again)

Just to elaborate on this, the models in base to base with the enemy models are the only ones that have to fight in CC with the squad touching them, the rest of the models can choose to assault the other unit if so desired as long as coherency is met.

This came up today in a tourney I played at my FLGS, here's the breakdown.

The below example depicts Lysander and the Apothecary assaulting from the north, and a normal SM squad assaulting from the south, with the necrons stuck in the middle.

Before assault move in's are declared:

Lysander, Apothecary
Necron, Necron, Necron
Necron, Necron, Necron
Necron, Necron, Necron
Necron Lord, Necron
SM, SM, SM, SM, SM, SM, SM

After assault move in's are declared:

Lysander, Apothecary
Necron, Necron, Necron

Necron, Necron Lord, Necron, Necron, Necron, Necron
SM, SM, SM, SM, SM, SM, SM

Only 3 necrons in the before move are in base to base with Lysander and the Apothecary, so they are the only ones that are forced to fight in CC with that unit, the rest of the unit that isn't in base to base with the normal SM squad that is assault, may choose to either assault Lysander and the Apothecary, or opt to move into the SM squad. The "after" example shows them putting their attacks into the SM squad to the south.

So basically the units that aren't in base to base are free to choose which squad they want to attack into, as long as they remain in coherency. Of course you resolve the whole assault as one big assault after wounds are allocated, and from there, take the combined total of wounds between both squads for combat resolution, and take morale/sweeping advance checks as normal.

Just to point out, the 3 necrons can choose to either attack lysander OR the Apoc OR Split their attacks, because of the IC CC rules.

Witzkatz wrote:Praise the emperor!

I played my first "big" game against a friend of mine yesterday, around 630 points (we don't have much more ). However, we got into one situation that somehow made us both ponder a bit if we played it right...

...I played marines, he played IG. My Cybot shot off his sentinel's PC. After that, that sentinel managed to avoid getting shot by my ML and stumbled into close combat with five of my marines.

The problem with this fight was: The sentinel, with its one attack, wasn't able to kill a marine in about five to six rounds (we played "till everything is dead", while the marines, only armed with krak grenades and nothing else useful, weren't able to take that thing finally down. (AV12 sentinel)

This was somehow ridiculous. Whole infantry platoons marched past this fight, because they weren't allowed to shoot in...we both looked for a rule that allowed a unit to free-willingly brake from CC, but found nothing. There is this USR, but that doesn't apply to marines or sentinels, so...

...what are we overlooking? Do the sentinel and the marines have to fight their endless struggle, until a marine rolls three 6's in a row (6 to hit, 6 to glance, 6-->4 to immobilize-->kill, 1/216 chance) ?

Thanks in advance,
Witzkatz

zombie78 wrote:
if the sentinel was able to kill one marine you could use combat tactics to fail your moral check and hope to break.

Witzkatz wrote:The problem with this fight was: The sentinel, with its one attack, wasn't able to kill a marine in about five to six rounds

zombie78 wrote:if the sentinel was able to kill one marine you could use combat tactics to fail your moral check and hope to break.

-Cough Cough-

Hey thats why i said if

Gwar! wrote:Just to point out, the 3 necrons can choose to either attack lysander OR the Apoc OR Split their attacks, because of the IC CC rules.

Oh good thinking. That's quite true.

Gwar! wrote:
The procedure for Moving Models into assault Via Defenders react takes place only after ALL Assaulting Models have made their moves, do you would end up with the 2nd diagram there.
.

I am not positive which diagram you are referring to as the "2nd diagram"; but I believe it is the last one

Do they pile-in one direction?
(Defiler)GauntsGauntsGaunts----------------(Defiler)

If so, your answer is wrong, that is *not* how the gaunts will end up; that would be an illegal move.

But perhaps you meant something else....

No, I meant once you move the Defilers, but before defenders react, you have the second diagram.

What is a Cybot and where can I purchase one.

Hollismason wrote:What is a Cybot and where can I purchase one.

Cybot is the German word for Dreadnought, as Dreadnought is an English Word meaning "Big Ass boat that kicked the Germans ass", and as such would be inappropriate for use in a German Codex.

Unlike in the US, the English are still allowed to hate the French and the Germans, the French hate the Germans and the English, and the Germans hate the English and the French.

And everybody hates Belgium... So... Much.

HMS Dreadnought launched in 1906 was the first Battleship of its kind, that made all prior battleships obsolete. ironically this was a bad thing for britain as it made her naval supremecy defunct, thus sparking the navel race between germany and Britain that led to hostility between the two. However Britain eventually won the race and maintained her "Rule of Two" navel policy with the new Dreadnought Class of battleship.

So Dreadnaught is not just "Big Ass Boat that kicked the Germans Ass" but also a pre-ww1 Terminiology in use in America, France, Britain and Wilhelm II Germany.

combo wrote:So Dreadnaught is not just "Big Ass Boat that kicked the Germans Ass" but also a pre-ww1 Terminiology in use in America, France, Britain and Wilhelm II Germany.

You noticed the part where:
a) The Brits made it.
2) Totally changed the face of Naval Combat.
iii) The Brits still won the Arms race.
d) The Brits made it.

Also, lighten up!

I was actually meant to be supporting your arguement and expanding on it, not confronting it .


Not everyone hates you Gwar!

Witzkatz wrote:

I played my first "big" game against a friend of mine yesterday, around 630 points

That just made me chuckle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Witzkatz wrote:
Do the sentinel and the marines have to fight their endless struggle, until a marine rolls three 6's in a row (6 to hit, 6 to glance, 6-->4 to immobilize-->kill, 1/216 chance) ?

Something doesn't add up here. Why would you need 3 6s in a row? A sentinel is a walker with a weapon skill. At base, you need 4s to hit it. If its weapon skill is double plus one of yours...you need 5+ to hit it. If your weapon skill is higher than the sentinel, you need 3+ to hit it.

Secondly, I don't know if a sentinel is AV10 all the way around or not? You always hit a walker on the front armor in close combat until you immobilize it. So if it is AV10 all the way around, I can see you needing 6 to glance. But there's a few things you can do here.

3: Weapon destroyed
4: Immobilized
5: Destroyed

Once all weapons on a walker are destroyed, if you roll another weapon destroyed, it is automatically immobilized. If you roll an immobilize result on a vehicle that is already immobilized, it goes to weapon destroyed. If all the weapons are destroyed on an immobilized vehicle and you roll a 3 or 4, the vehicle is destroyed (5).

Dashofpepper wrote:Once all weapons on a walker are destroyed, if you roll another weapon destroyed, it is automatically immobilized. If you roll an immobilize result on a vehicle that is already immobilized, it goes to weapon destroyed. If all the weapons are destroyed on an immobilized vehicle and you roll a 3 or 4, the vehicle is destroyed (5).

BRB p.73 wrote:Immobilised and/or stunned walkers fight in close combat with one less attack than usual (to a minimum of 1), but otherwise attack normally, no matter how many immobilised and stunned results they suffer.

KaloranSLC wrote:

BRB p.73 wrote:Immobilised and/or stunned walkers fight in close combat with one less attack than usual (to a minimum of 1), but otherwise attack normally, no matter how many immobilised and stunned results they suffer.

So? That doesn't stop Multiple immobilised turning into Weapon Destroyed turning into Wrecked. All that means is that if you suffer two Immobilised, you only lose 1 Attack, you still lose a weapon.

Gwar! wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:

BRB p.73 wrote:Immobilised and/or stunned walkers fight in close combat with one less attack than usual (to a minimum of 1), but otherwise attack normally, no matter how many immobilised and stunned results they suffer.

So? That doesn't stop Multiple immobilised turning into Weapon Destroyed turning into Wrecked. All that means is that if you suffer two Immobilised, you only lose 1 Attack, you still lose a weapon.

How so? Doesn't the part that says "fights normally no matter how many immobilised or stunned results" (emphasis mine) basically mean that the immobilised results are ignored?

No, it doesn't. When an Immobilised Vehicle takes another Immobilised, it loses a weapon. It is Impossible for a Vehicle to take more than 1 Immobilised result, because it gets changed to a WD.

The reference to no matter how many immobilised or stunned results means that if it was Stunned 97,876 times and suffers two immobilised (1 turned into a Weapon Destroyed via the rules), you still only suffer -1 attack.

But if you can show me the rule where it explicitly states "Walkers can be immobilised multiple times and sod the Vehicle Damage rules", I'll concede the point.