Monoliths and warrior summoning

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**extrenm(54)**

Ok, so everyone who plays Necrons knows that you can keep a squad of warriors in reserve and then summon the squad on through the portal when they arrive. However, I was looking at the models and saw that only about 12-15 warriors can be deployed two inches from the Monolith Portal. Does this mean that a squad of 16+ cannot come on through the monolith and cannot be summoned during the game?

**Hollismason**

There is more than enough room I dunno how you are setting them out but remember it is "within" 2inches so the very edge of the model needs to be within that 2inches.

I have seen it done and no problems.

**combo**

the entire model doesnt have to be within 2 inches, just a fraction of the base.

**extrenm(54)**

I know. If you measure from the plastic portal piece itself, the last 5 or so do not fit at all. No part of the base is within range.

**Dashofpepper**

Don't take me as the rule of law here, but if you look at your codex a little more closely...

You treat emerging units from the monolith that phased out and re-emeged from the monolith as disembarking, in which case you deploy them 2".

You treat reserve warriors emerging from the monolith as walking on from reserves, except that their board edge is the monolith door. The wording here is "Enter from reserves," and you do that by walking on from your table edge; with a special rule that you get to come out of the monolith instead of from the table edge.

They're worded differently, so I don't think you should assume you should treat warriors marching into play from reserves like a unit phasing to the monolith.

**TheGreatAvatar**

I believe it's been shown that a max of eighteen Warriors can be ported through the portal and still remain within two inches from the portal door.

@dashofpepper
Warriors held in reserve come out of the Monolith just like any other Necron unit using the portal.

**Dashofpepper**

*shrugs*

I just opened the codex, read it, and reasoned out what I thought it said. You say that warriors in reserve come out of the monolith just like any other necron unit using the portal.....except that the necron codex doesn't say that. It only mentions entering from reserve.

There's only three ways to enter from reserve:

1. From a table edge
2. Deep strike
3. Be Sly Marbo

The monolith lets you treat its portal as your table edge, such that when your warriors come out of reserve, they do so from the monolith instead of from the table edge. Units on the table using the monolith to phase out and re-enter play are a different story, and the necron codex calls that example out specifically. I don't think that you should extrapolate and apply their rule to reserves entering play, especially when the reserve description specifically leaves out the disembarking from a vehicle part...which they probably do because the reserves entering play are doing something completely different than the phasing units.

**Lordhat**

Codex Necrons, Second Printing Pg. 21 Power Matrix use #2 wrote: In the Monevement Phase it may use it's portal to bring units held in reserve into play, or allow entire units to phase out and re-enter play by emerging from the Monolith portal as if they were disembarking from an access point on a transport vehicle......

Here we see that both teleporting units and bringing them on from reserves are treated in the exact same way, which is further supported by the use of the same terminology throughout the rule, whenever it mentions the use of the portal. The term emerge is used and, shockingly enough, defined.

Codex Necrons, Second Printing Pg. 21 Power Matrix use #2, first bullet point wrote:
If a unit of Necron Warriors is eligible to enter play from reserve......then they must emerge from the portal even if you would prefer to fire the Particle Whip.......

Note the use of the word 'emerge' again. Looking at the previous use of the word, we know that emerging is "disembarking from an access point on a transport vehicle".

Codex Necrons, Second Printing Pg. 21 Power Matrix use #2, second bullet point wrote:
If there are no eligible reserves, and a Necron unit......is at least partially within 18' of the Monolith - even if they are in close combat - they may phase out and and re-emerge from the portal.

Once again there is that word "emerge". Since it is used exactly the same in all instances of units using the portal, we can summarize that a unit behaves in exactly the same fashion regardless of their state BEFORE 'emerging' from the Monolith.

Warrior units using the Monolith to enter from reserves do so using the rules for disembarkation.

**Gwar!**

Lordhat wrote:
Codex Necrons, Second Printing Pg. 21 Power Matrix use #2 wrote: In the Monevement Phase it may use it's portal to bring units held in reserve into play, or allow entire units to phase out and re-enter play by emerging from the Monolith portal as if they were disembarking from an access point on a transport vehicle......
Here we see that both teleporting units and bringing them on from reserves are treated in the exact same way, which is further supported by the use of the same terminology throughout the rule, whenever the it mentions the use of the portal. The term emerge is used and, shockingly enough, defined.
Codex Necrons, Second Printing Pg. 21 Power Matrix use #2, first bullet point wrote:
If a unit of Necron Warriors is eligible to enter play from reserve......then they must emerge from the portal even if you would prefer to fire the Particle Whip.......
Note the use of the word 'emerge' again. Looking at the previous use of the word, we know that emerging is "disembarking from an access point on a transport vehicle".
Codex Necrons, Second Printing Pg. 21 Power Matrix use #2, second bullet point wrote:If there are no eligible reserves, and a Necron unit......is at least partially within 18' of the Monolith - even if they are in close combat - they may phase out and and re-emerge from the portal.
Once again there is that word "emerge". Since it is used exactly the same in all instances of units using the portal, we can summarize that a unit behaves in exactly the same fashion regardless of their state BEFORE 'emerging' from the Monolith.

Warrior units using the Monolith to enter from reserves do so using the rules for disembarkation.

Prawned with a Side of Scampi if I do say so myself.

**RobPro**

If you had too many models to fit within 2" of the Monolith's door, would the extra models perform an emergency disembark?

**Gwar!**

RobPro wrote:If you had too many models to fit within 2" of the Monolith's door, would the extra models perform an emergency disembark?

~~The whole unit would emergency disembark.~~ Scratch that, Units may only Emergency Disembark "If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassable terrain", not if all of them cannot fit within 2" of the Access Point.

Hmmm, quite a conundrum here

**Lordhat**

I think emergency disembark is applicable in this case simply because in order to disembark legally (within 2" of the portal) some models would have to be placed in impassable terrain (INSIDE the hull of the Monolith).

That simple? Thoughts and comments welcome.

**Hollismason**

What defines the portal of a Monolith though? We always treat it as the side with the portal not the Physical portal itself.

Here is why.

Look at the side disembark of a Landraider; Rhino; or other vehicle. If you go through the measurement you cannot place all ten marines within 2 inches of that door as it is to small (Its only like 1 inch across) ; now look at the side doors of a Land Raider same thing.

Also physically speaking you cannot place 10 marines with in the front access point of a Landraider if you mount weapons forward on a landraide the back doors are just out of the range of the front doors which means you break coherency.

It's not possible when following the rules strictly speaking.

Now for simplistic sake if you look at the example in the rule book it just means that you can place within two inches of the side with the access point or the rear of the vehicle.

In this case we just said yeah treat portal as "access point".

It makes perfect sense and the rules examples and diagrams show this perfectly clear.

When it says "Side Access point " it is meaning the Side of a vehicle not a physical specific subsectioned part of the vehicle.

Thats just the way I call it.

**extrenm(54)**

Post 2009/06/30 02:40:49 Subject: Monoliths and warrior summoning
What defines the portal of a Monolith though? We always treat it as the side with the portal not the Physical portal itself.

Here is why.

Look at the side disembark of a Landraider; Rhino; or other vehicle. If you go through the measurement you cannot place all ten marines within 2 inches of that door as it is to small (Its only like 1 inch across) ; now look at the side doors of a Land Raider same thing.

Also physically speaking you cannot place 10 marines with in the front access point of a Landraider if you mount weapons forward on a landraide the back doors are just out of the range of the front doors which means you break coherency.

It's not possible when following the rules strictly speaking.

Now for simplistic sake if you look at the example in the rule book it just means that you can place within two inches of the side with the access point or the rear of the vehicle.

In this case we just said yeah treat portal as "access point".

It makes perfect sense and the rules examples and diagrams show this perfectly clear.

When it says "Side Access point " it is meaning the Side of a vehicle not a physical specific subsectioned part of the vehicle.

Thats just the way I call it.

If what you say is correct, then the game is totally changed. Access points MUST mean the actual door or it is WAY too easy to get out of a vehicle. Also, 10 marines can easily get out of a LR or rhino door and still have some part of the base within 2 inches. This is something I measure in most off of my games as CSM.
I will get a 20 man warrior squad and check again to see if they can all fit within 2 inches of the portal. It seems to me after considering the emergency disembark rules, that if you have a squad than cannot fit, the models either die, or none of them can come through.

**Lordhat**

Here's a couple pics I just took.

Here are 10 SM's deployed 2" from the side hatch with ease.

And here are the same 10 marines deployed within 2" of the side hatch while maintaining a distance greater than 1" from the enemy transport blocking the rear hatch.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:What defines the portal of a Monolith though? We always treat it as the side with the portal not the Physical portal itself.

This is where you make your first mistake. As shown in the diagrams, the 2" is measured from the hatch, not the entire facing (which is what you're doing).

Here is why.

Look at the side disembark of a Landraider; Rhino; or other vehicle. If you go through the measurement you cannot place all ten marines within 2 inches of that door as it is to small (Its only like 1 inch across) ; now look at the side doors of a Land Raider same thing.

Actually, as my photos show, it's not at all impossible.

Also physically speaking you cannot place 10 marines with in the front access point of a Landraider if you mount weapons forward on a landraide the back doors are just out of the range of the front doors which means you break coherency.

Terminators will probably have issues deploying large units out of the side doors in this case. Then again, most Termie units are 5 models possibly 6 with an attached IC.

It's not possible when following the rules strictly speaking.

Well here's the kicker about transports. When you take them, if the unit is too big to get every model to within 2" of an access point it can't embark. If you start the unit inside the transport, then it simply can't voluntarily disembark. If forced to disembark (which only happens when the vehicle suffers a Destroyed - Wrecked damage result or when Necrons use the portal on the Monolith), the unit must perform an Emergency Disembark because it can't deploy into impassable terrain (The transport vehicle itself).

**Kreedos**

Most people aren't going to be super anal about this. 20 warriors + 1 lord should be able to emerge and still be partially within 2 inches of the monolith's portal.

(Keep in mind you can measure from the little door that opens from the portal, and that gives an extra half inch.)

**Lordhat**

Kreedos wrote:Most people aren't going to be super anal about this.

I agree, most people won't. But this is YMDC, where we discuss what the rules say regardless of what people do. The question was posed, so we should figure out what the rule actually says. More than once this has led to shifts in local and regional play (I'm pretty sure Dakka has had quite a bit of impact in the 40k global community, but I can't say for sure).

(Keep in mind you can measure from the little door that opens from the portal, and that gives an extra half inch.)

Really? Can you quote me a page number where it says that you may measure from the ramp of an access point? Or explain why the diagram showing what the 2" disembarkation zone doesn't include the ramps?

**Hollismason**

The rulebook states that you cannot place models with in 1 inch of friendly or enemy models. I can't find my rulebook at the moment but yes, this is a rule it is I believe in the movement section where it talks about placing models. It specifically makes it state that it can only be done in assault. It's to prevent that exact same thing as well as huddling behind stuff.

So your diagrams would be incorrect.

**Gwar!**

Hollismason wrote:The rulebook states that you cannot place models with in 1 inch of friendly or enemy models

Sorry, you are wrong. You may not place models within 1" of ENEMY Models, you can go BTB with friendly Models just fine. Page 11 BRB.

**coredump**

Hollis, what are you talking about? He is showing marines disembarking from a rhino....

In another thread, someone drew out a 2" area from the monolith, and used bases to see how many warriors could fit. As I recall, 18 could fit. (It might have been 17, but I don't think so.)

He also used destroyer bases... but can't remember the result.

**extrenm(54)**

A link to that thread would be helpful.

Also, I looked at my monolith again. The plastic portal piece is about a half an inch inside the monolith, meaning you can successfully deploy even less. Also, there is no rule in the 40k rule book about what happens when a unit cannot disembark because there is not space. There is a rule about what happens when enemy models or terrain is in the way, but not when the squad is simply too big to deploy. It seems that if it cannot fit, then the squad must emergency disembark. This is a bad scenario, because if they do this, they cannot shoot that turn, and the effectiveness of summoning your warriors from reserve has been diminished.

**Hollismason**

Ill have to dig out my rulebook I am at school right now but it is actually in there. Also, look at the diagram for disembarking , the very bottom Space Marine in the diagram is well beyond two inches of the "side access point" ,but within the 2 inches of the side of the rhino.

That is whta I am using to support my argument.

**Gwar!**

You mean this one:

The one where he is within 2" of the Rear Access point, ya know, because Rhinos have 3 Access Points and the Lith only has 1.

**Tri**

Hollismason wrote:Ill have to dig out my rulebook I am at school right now but it is actually in there. Also, look at the diagram for disembarking , the very bottom Space Marine in the diagram is well beyond two inches of the "side access point" ,but within the 2 inches of the side of the rhino.

That is whta I am using to support my argument.

well i never noticed that .... that's not how I've been measuring with 2" but apparently you ignore the model apart from placing so you can be round a corner.

**Lordhat**

extrenm(54) wrote:There is a rule about what happens when enemy models or terrain is in the way, but not when the squad is simply too big to deploy.

Actually.....

BGB pg. 13 wrote:
Impassable terrain includes deep water, lava flows, seep rocky cliff and buildings that models cannot enter, as agreed with your opponent. Remember that other models, friends and enemies, also count as impassable terrain.

So even friendly models can trigger the impassable terrain clause of the emergency disembark rule. It only seems logical that the transport itself should do so in this case.

extrenm(54) wrote:
It seems that if it cannot fit, then the squad must emergency disembark. This is a bad scenario, because if they do this, they cannot shoot that turn, and the effectiveness of summoning your warriors from reserve has been diminished.

It's better than the alternative; The only precedent in the book for a unit that must disembark but cannot is the Destroyed - Wrecked damage result. In that case, if passengers cannot disembark at all, they are destroyed.

**Hollismason**

Nevermind it is the independent character section that I was thinking of and the first sentence of the rulebook on moving stating models may not move through a space smaller than their own base.

The description and illustration Gwar places the bottom left model with in 2inches of the side but not the rear access hatch ( access hatch on rhino is recessed )