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Imagine for a minute.

You have a nasty monsterous creature that *needs* to get into combat this turn in order for you to win, in fact lets say if you don't get into combat, you lose automatically, and if you do get into combat, you win automatically.

The rules are very clear.

1) A monster may at any time pivot during it's movement phase.

2) During a charge, as long as the base comes into combat, you count has having successfully charged.

So: Let's say you charge with your bone-giant, and after final measurements, your 12.25 inches away from your opponents unit that you intend to charge, but WAIT, you didn't pivot at all during your charge, it was a straight shot, so you spin your model on it's center, and the outside corner taps your opponents unit, and your charge counts as successful. Your model technically didn't move more than 12 inches, but managed to charge something 12.25 inches away... Dakkadakka.com YOU MAKE THE CALL.

Also, what if the win *isn't* riding on this sucker?

i know that, at least in that last edition of the BRB, there was a section at the end that stated a situation just like this. while its technically legal, it's something that your not supposed to do. its a loop hole that players are encouraged not to exploit, it is a game after all. i don't know about tourney play though.

Or more correctly:

1) A monster may at any time pivot once during a charge, "if a straight move wouldn't hit the target or would not bring as many models as possible into combat."

I'll ponder a bit more before voting. I'm thinking it's legit, and I do know you can gain inches while moving (not charging) a monster on a chariot base, by pivoting and using the great length to your advantage ...

- Salvage

You measure before moving so I'd be interested to see how you would pull that off without losing friends or being called a cheater. It's a gray area and I don't think you could pull it off without someone saying you didn't measure correctly or didn't pivot from the center of your model....and if the game depended on some dubious charge you obviously suck and deserve to lose anyway so just take it like a man and learn from your mistakes. Thinking up crap like this is how you become TFG.

Bat Manuel wrote:You measure before moving so I'd be interested to see how you would pull that off without losing friends or being called a cheater. It's a gray area and I don't think you could pull it off without someone saying you didn't measure correctly or didn't pivot from the center of your model....and if the game depended on some dubious charge you obviously suck and deserve to lose anyway so just take it like a man and learn from your mistakes. Thinking up crap like this is how you become TFG.

LOL wonder how you voted. Quite the scathing response... You and I have butted heads in the past, and so I think you already consider me TFG anyway... I'm not really too hurt by that.

You are right, IMO that if you have to depend on something like this, you probably ought to get better. Luckily I've never depended on it, I just wanted to know what you guys thought of it. I'll be certain never to use it on you.

The real question here though, and what I'd like to hear from you is: WHY is this dubious? Are there any rules in the book that contradict this line of thought.

As Bat Manuel stated, you measure before moving. Under any reasonable circumstance, you can only lose movement by wheeling, therefore if a straight line won't make it, neither will an angled path. Failed charge, end of story.

here guys i'll give you a hand

from the big book of warhammer

"like all units monsters are restricted by there movement during a charge. monsters can pivot on the spot one during a charge move if a strait move wouldn't hit the target or would not bring as many models into combat,but are free to do this at any part of the move. this means they can either pivot and then charge in a strait line, or move directly forward stop to pivot in a diffrent direcion and the continue in a strait line"

It is completely leagal to pivot the monster first and then check the distance.

Ragnar4 wrote: You and I have butted heads in the past, and so I think you already consider me TFG anyway...

We've never butted heads before. That would imply you're on the same level as I am. I think you've ran into my shins though.

I don't think you're TFG as they usually have better tactics.

My reply was an honest response to your post. Everything I posted was serious and true. If a 'hail mary' charge is going to win or lose the game then you (not necessarily you, so don't get upset) do in fact suck and should have planned better. I'm not the one who loaded the poll with dumb choices. Yes, No & Maybe would have been sufficient. You shouldn't base your play style on what you think you can get away with at a tournament. Play every game like a friendly game (not looking for loopholes- that's TFG's job) and it will make you a better player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks for the post Ludwig. You made me go get the book out. Page 59. " Of course they must still abide by all the normal rules governing charges..."

Now got check out Page 21 and there is even a little picture for the kiddies 21.1..disaster!

Given that WFB draws more of a "Tournament" crowd with an interest in things like "clipping" and "corner charges" and "J-charging" and "Conga lines", I don't see how this is any different from any of the other WFB nonsense that has come up in the past...
____

Added URL to J-charge

Huh.

Used to be that the JCharge was stupid illegal because of the "must take the most direct route rule.

I'mma have to look that one up.

I think the line Ludwig quoted may answer this. A monster can make its pivot at one of two points: before moving, or to turn to move around models/terrain.

In one sentence, they say the monster can pivot once during its move. The next sentence then lays down the options for when this pivot can occur.

...

And really, if you're being this anal about it, then your definitely not playing according to the rules, since you're in violation of The Most Important Rule as outlined on page 3.

...

I think the J-Charge is based on a slightly flawed logic. You still have to follow the normals rules of a charge, and the argument could very easily be made that you can still determine arc based on the center of the unit or the positioning of the models based on the charger. I would also find this to be in violation of The Most Important Rule.

I've never actually seen anyone try to do a J-charge as it requires 3 very specific unit types to be in certain areas and a simple flee messes up everything as all the positioning just falls apart. Also the only time to do a move like that would be if you're in a tournament with no regard for sportsmanship or you hate your opponent. In both cases you'd have to ask yourself why are you even playing?

Can someone point me to the page in the BRB where it says that you must measure out charge distances before moving the model/unit?

Assuming this sentence can be found somewhere in the book, how do you guys handle the application of this rule when your opponent wheels his units? Seems awfully messy to force him to measure while guessing because he's trying to measure a wheel.

I find the interpretation that you must measure before moving impractical, and to be honest, not the RAW in this case.

Two, the exact wording of the Manoeuvring During a charge rulie on 59 reads as follows.

" Monsters can pivot on the spot only once during a charge move if a straight move wouldn't hit the target or would not bring as many models as possible into combat, but are free to do this at any point during the move."

--On a wildly-contradictory side-note. A FAQ established that tactical wheeling was OK as long as you had the movement to make it into the charge, IE charging with your chariot and avoiding that character with the str7 flail etc etc, as long as you followed the traditional "must bring as many models into combat as is humanly possible. (Right after 7th ed was released, I wanna say it was the very first FAQ.)

Back to the argument at hand. A straight 12 inch move would not bring me into combat, but I may pivot at any time, and so I could move forward straight 12 inches, and pivot, and I would bring the maximum number of models into combat that movement allowed me to ( in this case my one giant) Still 0 contradictory evidence here.

Please, I don't want my opponents using this on me, could someone please point out where in the BRB it says you must measure before you move, and moreover help me clarify how to handle this interesting caveat when handling an army like Brettonians when they have their super wheel of doom.

I looked too and didn't find anything, but reguardless of that monsters are very specific in there charge move.

A: piviot and move

B move piviot move

you may piviot the monster before you mesure thats the bottom line, this isn't a wheel, with the bone giant, its not such a big deal ( and I'm not saying you should be clipping units with monsters here) you just turn him in place and them mesure to see if you make it.

Bat Manuel wrote:Now got check out Page 21 and there is even a little picture for the kiddies 21.1..disaster!

Examples count. The knights had a 14" charge and were found to be 15" away from the enemy so the charge failed. Now I know it doesn't exactly spell it out word for word, but how do you think they were found to be 15" away? They measured before they moved

How would you charge anything in the game without measuring first? Just move into base and since your model is there you must have been in range? How would you fail charges? Move your full charge distance up and back up if you didn't make it, which would be weird because you didn't know how far away you are anyway.

On another note both Ludwig and Manfred pointed out the 2 instances a monster is allowed to pivot and after it has finished moving is not one of them so that would be called cheating.

Ragnar4 wrote:I find the interpretation that you must measure before moving impractical, and to be honest, not the RAW in this case.

I'm almost dumbfounded on this one, but If I sig'd other people's dumb responses this would probably be one of them.

I did not vote, because I don't really agree with the wording of the choices. And I have changed my mind about this topic at least twice as I thought it over. What it comes down to, I think, is what you consider to be the actual rule, in the rulebook, and what is clarification or example. We have two sentences, and the question is, how do you interpret their interaction?


A) The Rule: Monsters can pivot on the spot only once during a charge move if a straight move wouldn't hit the target or would not bring as many models as possible into combat, but are free to do this at any point in the move.
The Clarification: This means they can either pivot and then charge in a straight line, or move directly forward, stop to pivot towards a different direction and then complete their move in a straight line.

B) The Rule: Monsters can pivot on the spot only once during a charge move if a straight move wouldn't hit the target or would not bring as many models as possible into combat, but are free to do this at any point in the move. This means they can either pivot and then charge in a straight line, or move directly forward, stop to pivot towards a different direction and then complete their move in a straight line.

If you read A, then it is obvious that a monster could reach the very end of its charge, not be in contact with the target, and then pivot (if a straight charge wouldn't hit the target, eh? Can pivot at any point, eh?) Perfectly legal.

If you read B, then it is obvious that a monster could not reach the very end of its charge and then pivot (complete their move in a straight line, eh?).

At first I was going with A, even though I did not like it, and I think I'd be an unhappy gamer if it was used against me.
But the more I think about it, the more persuaded I am that B is the correct reading, because why put that sentence in the rules if it was unimportant? Often people say that the rules tell you what you are allowed to do, and "the rules don't say I can't" is no arguement at all. The authors explicitly tell us that pivot-move is allowed, and move-pivot-move is allowed, but they make no mention of move-pivot. Are we to assume that they forgot, or are we to assume that move-pivot is not allowed?

In the end, I think B is the best reading. I freely admit that part of my reason for this is, I think A is unsporting.

[Edit:] Bats has a point. Examples count. I like that. Well said!

Bat Manuel wrote:

Bat Manuel wrote:Now got check out Page 21 and there is even a little picture for the kiddies 21.1..disaster


Examples count. The knights had a 14" charge and were found to be 15" away from the enemy so the charge failed. Now I know it doesn't exactly spell it out word for word, but how do you think they were found to be 15" away? They measured before they moved

How would you charge anything in the game without measuring first? Just move into base and since your model is there you must have been in range? How would you fail charges? Move your full charge distance up and back up if you didn't make it, which would be weird because you didn't know how far away you are anyway.

On another note both Ludwig and Manfred pointed out the 2 instances a monster is allowed to pivot and after it has finished moving is not one of them so that would be called cheating. !

This is all good and i agree as long as you understand that Monsters can piviot before you measure. They are diffrent then normal units in this way.

Sure, but that wouldn't affect this charge situation.

fellblade wrote:The authors explicitly tell us that pivot-move is allowed, and move-pivot-move is allowed, but they make no mention of move-pivot.

Move-Pivot is a Move-Pivot-Move in which the last move is very, very small.

So wait.

Going 12 inches and pivoting is not legal

But going 11.99999~ and pivoting is?

--Also I play just like everyone around here plays, and that's where they put the tape down on the table move forward a few inches, and then start their wheel, and then re-adjust the tape, and then wheel some more, and then re adjust the tape again, and then wheel some more, make a mental note of what 50% of their total charge looked like, and then move the rest of the way, and determine from there if their unit hit, if it didn't they may go back to their wheel and see of they could wheel less and take a different angle at trying to get into combat..... sometimes it works.

I'm not saying that the way we play it around here is explicitly right, I'm saying that there's no-where in the book that says that you have to leave the unit exactly where it is. 21.1 is a very cut and dry straight line. I haven't had a cut-and-dry straight line charge in years.

There's also a spot in the book that suggests that not everything can be covered in the book, and that you should try to take the most agreeable route to deciding it. How is moving your unit and wheeling during the move, or moving the model, pivoting, and then moving the model again, as long as it doesn't go farther than it's charge value against the RAI like you so actively suggest?

Also, how do you measure wheels before moving, didn't answer that one either.

Ragnar4 wrote:Imagine for a minute....you didn't pivot at all during your charge, it was a straight shot...

hmm... is this the original situation here?

Ragnar4 wrote:So wait... 21.1 is a very cut and dry straight line. I haven't had a cut-and-dry straight line charge in years...

I think you're done now, before you go, is there anything else you'd like to come back to?

Bottom line, everything else aside- why would a monster be able to charge .5" farther than it's charge speed when (Pg.59)they must still abide by all normal rules governing charges..? You don't need to answer that, but if you have to think about it you might just be TFG

I don't need to say any more about this

I don't care who I'm playing, or what I stand to gain by winning the match, if I have a charge range of X and the measurement on a straight line is clearly X+.25, I'm not going to claim I can move X-.01 and then pivot to make contact, because that takes my unit/monster/whatever further than its maximum charge range.

Any form of turn during a charge move is intended to reduce clipping and make for cleaner battle lines. Using it to extend the distance you can move is ridiculous.

"But I saved .0001% of my movement for after my pivot!" -- The latest battle cry of the rules lawyer. Upon hearing this, I or any other reasonable tournament organizer or local rule dispute assistant will gladly grant your model and the rest of your army the ability to pivot itself into base contact with your car, as you wouldn't be playing at the current location much longer.

Of course, if Move Chargers still required models to be moved by the shortest, most direct route, a bit of the stupidity goes away...

I wish I could remember who originally said this, so I could properly give them credit: "Play the game, not the rules."

If the rule say you can do it, than go ahead. I will keep this trick in my back pocket.

Circle Bases, for monstes would solve this sort of magic movement

Christ, another one.

BryanC wrote:If the rule say you can do it, than go ahead. I will keep this trick in my back pocket.

Circle Bases, for monstes would solve this sort of magic movement

Circle bases wouldn't work in Fantasy. Actual base contact is too important.

And the rules DON'T say you can do it. There is no point in the rulebook that reads, "A single model may pivot at the ned of its charge in order to reach an enemy unit." People are reading more into this than there is.

Doing something like this makes you TFG.

My point is this, If the rules allow it. Which to me the do seem to, why shouldn’t it be allowed?

Yes, you cannot Pivot at the end of your movement, but you can pivot right before the end of your movement.

We are all playing with the same set of rules, If this happened to me, My reaction would be OMG, that was a really slick move. and move on with the game. Than do the same thing to him the next time we played.

Personally, I do not see why exploiting the rules makes you a TFG.

Nevertheless, the people play this game against all have a different opinion of how the game should be played. I try never to make a rules argument ruin the fun of the game, so personally I would not press this type of thing if my opponent was getting upset.

I do think it is a neat caveat in the rules though.

BryanC wrote:
Personally, I do not see why exploiting the rules makes you a TFG.

That word is crucial.

Depending on the situation, it has certain connotations. In the context of a game of plastic soldiers which is ostensibly exists to provide entertainment, the word "exploit" has a very negative connotation. Yes, ultimately you try to win over your opponent in this game (pretty much all games challenge you to defeat an opponent). But when one actively tries to find and exploit loopholes in fuzzily-worded rules, that person starts becoming TFG who apparently puts winning at some game above all else.

The only catch is that WFB, like 40k, has a requirement to play in a gentlemanly fashion, and makes this the first rule of each game.