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There are a number of posters who maintain that BA are a highly competitive army, there are those who disagree. Although I would have put myself in the camp of thinking they could make a good list, can they still be viable in the new environment?

Mechvets, Mechdar, Vulcan Mech and the rest are all getting/are popular as has been discussed at length on this forum. Armies such as Tau seem to be getting a bit of a revival due to the huge amount of armour around. Necrons and Nids seem to be scratching their heads as to how to deal with the shift. I'm sure no-one disagrees that there has been a shift lately towards armour (as discussed at length on Mahu's thread).

I am feeling (please correct me if you disagree) that although BA have arguably been able to keep up with significant trends of 5th, this latest one has finally left them behind. In terms of being competitive what can they bring to the table now?

For the purposes of getting a discussion started, the following is a marine list that could be considered competitive by todays standards (from another Mahu thread, apologies but I forget who wrote it). I'm not asking for BA lists which can beat it, I'm just underlining what I would consider an example of a marine build that can compete in today's tournament metagame. Can the BA bring a list which can still do well? I doubt it but I'd love to be proven wrong.

Vulkan

Elite
Dread HF, MM
Dread HF, MM
5 Assault Terminators w th/ss in LRR w MM

Troops
10 Tac marines, sgt w/pf and cm, melta and mm, rhino
10 Tac marines, sgt w/pf and cm, melta and mm, rhino
10 Tac marines, sgt w/ cm, melta and mm, rhino

Fast Attack
2 Land Speeders, HF and MM
2 Land Speeders, HF and MM

Heavy Support
Dakka predator
Dakka Predator

Pretty sure thats about 2000 points.

I beat a similar list with my BA hands down. Earlier this month I tied a person play mechdar (had won a GT in Dallas back in the early part of this decade) in the last round of an RTT. BA is a top army if played right.

G

From the reading and testing I have been doing I concentrate a couple of things.

1. Mobile Melta. Placing melta weapons in highly mobile squads. My favorite for this right now is attack bikes and I am experimenting with normal bike squads with melta guns. Mobile melta can get up close and personal and bring the melta weapon special rules to bear.

2. Lots of smaller, faster units. Unfortunately this means some problems with kill point games, but it makes contending objectives, and holding multiple objectives much easier. We have a smaller amount of things already because of the increased cost, so cannot really afford to put all our eggs in one basket.

3. Death Company can be MVP every game if used correctly. The entire army costs more because of them, and they have special rules galore. Lead by a Chaplain and they are a truly terrifying force. Get them stuck in with the enemies hordes or medium troops and watch them mow down hordes of guys, or if you need to cross a section of space to get to your enemy, jump the death company right in the open while everything else makes it's move at the same time. Your enemy will focus fire the death company in fear of having them reach their lines, then what ever survives continues through.

I have a local tournament I am attending this weekend and will be experimenting with a few things. Will let you know how it goes. I know that one dark angels players has an army similar to the one listed here, so we will see how that battle goes.

BA have access to a fair amount of mobile meltaguns and some units are able to trade Jump Packs for Rhinos sans extra cost. Basically, play your own mech type army with piles of meltaguns. Dante/Corbulo is also a good place to go with the list.

Mech BA has the whole fast tanks thing going for it, which is huge for contesting objectives on the last turn. People who say BA aren't competitive haven't a clue what they are talking about.

Corbulo is about the most awesome 100 points you can spend in any codex anywhere IMO. I've been watching him eat my combat squads singlehandedly since my friend started his BA back up.

I always manage to shoot the entire squad around him down, but, wounded and limping, he hits my Ultramarines like the fist of an angry god every time.

GeneralRetreat wrote:Corbulo is about the most awesome 100 points you can spend in any codex anywhere IMO.

I can't help but disagree an emporer's champion would destroy him in CC. Not that they should be fighting anyway!

All space marines have access to transports and to meltaguns and multi-meltas.

They each have a different special character or special rule to give them personality, but essentially, all space marines can compete in this world of transports and armor.

BA are certainly no different. Might need to shift a few things around to better match up against newer army types, but you've got all the tools you need in your PDF.

GeneralRetreat wrote:Corbulo is about the most awesome 100 points you can spend in any codex anywhere IMO. I've been watching him eat my combat squads singlehandedly since my friend started his BA back up.

I always manage to shoot the entire squad around him down, but, wounded and limping, he hits my Ultramarines like the fist of an angry god every time.

Corbulo, the guy with no power weapon of any kind, is eating your marines?

Would something like this be seen as a competitive list at 2000?

HQ
Corbulo – 100pts

Dante – 200pts

Elites
*(4)Death Company – 40pts
-Rhino

(7)Veteran Assault Squad – 280pts
-+2 Veteran
-Meltagun
-Meltagun
-Power Weapon
-Power Weapon
-Power Fist
-Melta Bomb

Troops
(10)Assault Squad – 275pts
-Base: 140pts
-+5 Marines: 110pts
-Power Fist

(10)Tactical Squad – 265pts
-+5 Marines
-Meltagun
-Power Fist
-Rhino

(10)Tactical Squad – 265pts
-+5 Marines
-Meltagun
-Power Fist
-Rhino

Fast Attack
(2)Attack Bike Squadron – 100pts
-+1 Attack Bike:

(2)Attack Bike Squadron – 100pts
-+1 Attack Bike

Heavy Support

Baal Predator – 125pts
-Heavy Bolter sponsons

Baal Predator – 125pts
-Heavy Bolter sponsons

Baal Predator – 125pts
-Heavy Bolter sponsons

Lots of firepower for dealing with infantry, lots of fast vehicles and infantry, mobile cover, etc.

Khornatedemon wrote:Corbulo, the guy with no power weapon of any kind, is eating your marines?

A 3-wound model with five S5 I6 attacks on the charge and a 3+/4+ save is probably not too shabby at chewing through any rank-and-files if worst comes to worst and he has to do some fighting himself.

I think you should replace something for a vindicator as that will be good against both tanks and infantry otherwise it looks like a sound list.

Cheif Librarian Vaako wrote:I think you should replace something for a vindicator as that will be good against both tanks and infantry otherwise it looks like a sound list.

I might give it a shot. I haven't played the list yet but I like the mobility inherent in it. Everything can move at least 12" a turn and sometimes more. Those TH/SS termies in a Redeemer? At this speed I can more or less ignore them and engage them at my leisure. A static unit like a Vindicator feels like it would ruin that synergy.

Seriously? Corbulo is a Chaplain without a Crozius (PW)? I'm going to have to look that up, or we've been playing very wrong.

Honestly, it's his Furious Charge bubble that makes him dangerous. Run him with a squad in a Rhino to keep up with the Jumppackers, and suddenly the assault gets SCARY.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240751.page

GBF's list is a pretty well optimized mech BA list.

GeneralRetreat wrote:Seriously? Corbulo is a Chaplain without a Crozius (PW)? I'm going to have to look that up, or we've been playing very wrong.

Honestly, it's his Furious Charge bubble that makes him dangerous. Run him with a squad in a Rhino to keep up with the Jumppackers, and suddenly the assault gets SCARY.

Haha, that's part of the charm about Blood Angels that distinguishes it from other Marine armies. Just about every infantry unit can become pretty scary. Even that Attack Bike squad isn't too shabby when it gets within the Dante+Cobulo bubble, dishing out 6 WS4/S5/I5 rerollable attacks on the charge.

Yea, Corbulo isn't a scary Close Combat monster by himself, he just makes everyone else one.

bhsman wrote:

GeneralRetreat wrote:Seriously? Corbulo is a Chaplain without a Crozius (PW)? I'm going to have to look that up, or we've been playing very wrong.

Honestly, it's his Furious Charge bubble that makes him dangerous. Run him with a squad in a Rhino to keep up with the Jumppackers, and suddenly the assault gets SCARY.

Haha, that's part of the charm about Blood Angels that distinguishes it from other Marine armies. Just about every infantry unit can become pretty scary. Even that Attack Bike squad isn't too shabby when it gets within the Dante+Cobulo bubble, dishing out 6 WS4/S5/I5 rerollable attacks on the charge.

Yea, Corbulo isn't a scary Close Combat monster by himself, he just makes everyone else one.

And thats why BA ruled 3rd edition with the entire army having furious charge. Until the chaos codex came around and pretty much did the same that is.

Corbulo isnt a chaplain. He is a sanguinary high priest, which is pretty much a high ranking apothecary.

whitedragon wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240751.page

GBF's list is a pretty well optimized mech BA list.

That's pretty similar to my list, the only differences being that he gave the RAS a Rhino over Jump Packs and runs more Death Company over a third Predator. Might have to keep it in mind...

What about Dante and his wonderful perdition pistol? Huh? Huh?

G

Shep wrote:All space marines have access to transports and to meltaguns and multi-meltas.

They each have a different special character or special rule to give them personality, but essentially, all space marines can compete in this world of transports and armor.

BA are certainly no different. Might need to shift a few things around to better match up against newer army types, but you've got all the tools you need in your PDF.

My friend will be less than thrilled to hear about this... He has enough trouble against me anyway...

BA seems like a disadvantaged list, but I think it's really his lack of models that is getting him right now.

However, making a Baal Predator a FAST tank is another scary little thing. Sounds like not much, but it means he can move it 6" (out around a corner) and still unload with TL-AC and 2 HB and SB. That's a lotta Dakka on the move.

My 1850 BA list crushes most armies quite well.. If you learn WHEN to fight then BA can be devastating

People still underestimate the awesome power of even tactical squads with S5 and reroll misses

The main problem with BA is that I find them boring because the list is almost the same every time due to lack of real options

i find the same problem as Kirasu, being we basically have little that make us a true assault army, also im gonna QQ bout Mephiston and his beatdown with the nerfstick. Also theyre completely not viable against mechanized SM due to the fact of the other army filling out the heavys w/ devastator squads and the elites with plasma dreads and sternguard. if anyone knows a magical BA list that can beat this please tell, oh and also Shrike with a vanguard squad, a land raider redeemer and two melta/ ML tac squads, please show me a list

I have never lost to mech SM with my BA. And we have a lot of units to choose from that are excellent in assaults.

G

I'm impressed with the list of Green Blow Fly that whitedragon referred to. I'm not convinced that given two players of equal skill the BA list is better than the Vulkan one, but it's better than any I'd seen before and it looks like it can compete. I'm curious though, I see that you have an assault squad in a rhino, given that they're more expensive than tacticals with less options, what do you feel they add to the list?

I say again though, best BA list I've seen to date by a long shot.

I am relaunching my blood angels list. I will let you know how it works but for 2000 points it looks like this roughly

Lamartes

2 5 man teminator assualt squads

2 reg land raiders

2 Assualt marines 10 man, 3 plasma pistols, fist

furioso dread, death company and venerable, drop
podding

3 land speeders, Assualt Cannons, Multi-meltas

Death Company 5 strong with Jump packs

Basically going to run the LR up and unload into my enemy`s line, keeping lemartes and d company screened behind the armour, drop the Fury behind enemy lines, and go tank hunting with the speeders, usingin either the AC or the melta depending on the target. Splitting the Assualt squads into the 2 units each and running around to secure objectives or just kill stuff.