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Ok, I know Stelek and his gang aren't high on the Orks right now, so Im sure they all hate any of these lists, but I figured I'd see what you guys think I should run with. Believe it or not, the stronger players where I will be participating will have Necrons, Eldar, and of course there will be some CSM.


The first list;


Boss
Big Choppa
Combi-skorcha
some armor


Big Mek/ KFF


10 Nobs 3 w/PK
Painboy
Battlewagon

5 Meganobz
Battlewagon

Truk Boy mob
Truk Boy mob

30 Boys
30 Boys

9x Kan

2x Deffcopta
2x Deffcopta
2x Deffcopta


The idea here, is that there is a hammer and anvil approach. With everything on the ground running, they won't be far behind the mounted stuff that hits. I know there will be a timing issue, but thats something I will have to work out game by game. The Mek rides or walks depending on the army I am facing.




2nd list;

Boss as above

Mek as above

10 Nobs 3 w/PK
Battlewagon

Truk mob
Truk mob

27 Boys mob
26 Boys mob

9x Kan

2x Deffcopta
2x Deffcopta
2x Deffcopta

14 Lootas
14 Lootas



In both lists, assume, Nob with PK leading boys. Standard loadouts for vehicles, RP, Riggers, I did add Boarding planks to every vehicle though.



The 2nd list, drops the Meganobs, and a few boys, and adds 2x14 Lootas, for obvious reasons.




Any help is appreciated.




Clay

Nothing?



Clay

Second list. Lootas are a must take, especialy with everybody meching up. you'll get at least 1 turn of unmolested movement while they freak and shoot at the auto cannons in the back and you'll destroy at least 1-3 transports before your sloggers hit em. two deffkoptas have leadership issues. they usally work as a suicide squad so if you drop one from each unit add buzzsaws you'll get 3 more attacks at str7 to back armor instead of one str 8 atk. if you pop a transport or exacutioner you made up the 70 pts easy. use the left over pts to add rokkitz or bump the footslogers up to 30 mobs. just IMHO

2x Mek w/ KFF

Max Lootas (3x 15)

2x Deff Dreads

2x 30 Boys

Max Kans

About as good as Orks can get =/

Don't take either list. They're both awful. :(

I'm guessing you haven't read any other Ork armylist threads in this forum, so the best you're going to get from me right now is my standard copy+paste ork advice.
------------------------------------------
Orks can do anything that any other army can do and do it better than they can. However, they cannot do everything that any other army can do. Make sense? If you make an ork assault army, they'll out-assault any other army in 40k. If you make a shooting army, you can outgun IG or Tau. If you go foot-slogging, or mechanized, or kan-wall....all those options make you a completely awesome army, but there's a catch. You can only do one of them at a time with an army list.

If you combine a mechanized and a foot-slogging list, you're going to lose. If you have part assault, party shooting, you're probably going to lose. Your strength is in being able to pick something and be completely awesome at it. So before giving you advice on where to go next with your army, you need to pick a theme and build around it. If you want a bike army, or a shooting army; an outflanking army, mechanized, assault, figure out what your playstyle is and start building your units and armylist around that idea.

THAT is the strength of Orks.

When you decide what you want your army list to be, start by explaining what your intent is, then post an army list along those lines and we'll work from there and make suggestions.

^^^^

This is good general advice, even if he is to lazy to post anything more specific.

The two lists you have made arent very good because they try to do too many things. Not just with orks, but with any army, dont try to acomplish to much incase you fail at everything.

Now on to some more specific stuff:

Using two HQs will hurt you in the second mission. Your warboss isnt that good anyway so you should probably drop him. If you decide to hang o to him then drop the big choppa for a PK. Not ignoring armour really hurts a warboss.

If you are running nobs there is no reason that you shouldn't make them fully complex to take advantage of wound allocation. Not only will it give them some extra punch, it will make them damned hard to kill.

Lootas are a better choice than meganobs so your second list is better generally.

With mech lists being all the rage footslogging boys with no upgrades lose out. They all need to be maximum squad sizes with 3 rokkits each. Rokkits are an orks friend. Even at BS2 you can get lots very cheaply, and you should.

Its better to spend points on rokkits than red paint, grot riggers or boarding planks

What weapons do your kans have? Rokkits would be good but grotzookas and ans skorchas are also useful.

I'm not too lazy to post specific advice! If you look around at the Ork lists in here, I write pages and pages of advice.

However, when the fundamental concept behind the army itself is flawed, rather than giving it a pointless critique of individual units and structure, I instead solicit the OP to restructure their army, or at least give me guidance on where they'd like to go with it, and what they have available.

Quite the opposite of lazy I say!

ok, replies in order;


1. All the Coptas have Buzzsaws. I just didnt want to list every piece of wargear, guess I should have been more specific though.


2. I need more than just "both lists are aweful" I have had a ton of success with some variation of these lists in a strong player environment. What exactly is so aweful about them? I understand that I have a split walking/mounted contingent, however, put that in perspective to the Ard Boys missions. One of which places 2 objectives in your deployment zone, and one in the middle of the board.

3. Combining shooting and assaulting is not an "auto-loss" There are plenty of Orks storming forward, and with 2 Loota units, you kind of have to pick your poison there. Not to say I don't care for your advice, I will think on it, as I did ask for feedback.

4. For the record, I read ALL of the Ork armylist threads, I just don't always agree, and since Ive been playing Orks for going on 15 years, I have a bit of knowledge myself. Doesnt make me right of course.

5. The Warboss is in the unit of Nobs, and will be swinging at st8, init5 on the charge with 6 attacks. Thats pretty darn good for the cost. There are also 3 Nobs with PKs in that squad to back him up, plus the other 6 Nobs. Is he a gamebreaker? No, but he lets me take Nobs as troops, which that unit is. I do agree, and may and try and figure out how to squeeze in the points for making the Nobs complex.

6. The Footslogging units are there mainly for objective grabbing, and backup. They will be behind a wall of Kans, possibly with the Big Mek in there for added support.

7. We shall have to agree to disagree. The Rokkits in the footslogging mobs means I am not RUNNING, I am shooting. The Boarding Planks allow me to attack those vehicles without getting hit in return. It also works on Dreads, Defilers, SoulGrinders and the like, so its pretty nice.

8. All the Kans have Grotzookas.



Please continie the critique, I am in no way convinced I am right 100%, but don't expect me to lay down and change my list without more feedback than just "those lists are aweful".


Thanks again,


Clay

I told you why I thought that they were awful. You haven't picked a theme. When I look at your army list, I see a collection of units that are going to be playing on the table at the same time. That's not an army. Obviously, take what I say with a grain of salt. If you've had tremendous success with your army list(s) then continue to use them; I think the most important part is finding out what works for you and using it.

As for objectives in 'Ard Boyz....I'm going to be attempting to table my opponents in every round. I don't play cautiously, or for a draw...I'm not going to sit on my two objectives and try taking/holding the one in the middle. I don't care who you are, that's asking for a draw. Instead, I'm going to abandon both of my objectives, and go table my opponents. In all likelihood, they're going to have some guys on one objective, some guys on the other objective, and some to go take the middle.

That means that 2500 points of my army is going to focus on 1 out of 3 elements of your army at a time. Everything I just said was obviously geared towards tactical play and not army list enhancement, but there was a point in there:

The problem with your army is the same as I described. You're willingly giving up your biggest strength to every opponent you play, before the game even starts. You've brought the optimal amounts of everything that an opponent has firepower to deal with. 3-4 vehicles...ok, nice. Everyone has enough lascannons, melta-guns, or railguns to deal with that. You brought a few foot-slogging units....also nice. Everyone should have a few templates in their armies; 2-3 in all likelihood at least. Plenty to annihilate your foot-slogging guys. Their anti-tank gets to fire at your tanks, their anti-troop gets to fire at your troops, and you've maximized the effectiveness of whomever you play against.

If you play against me, you're going to run your vehicles forward with their units inside....that's say...half of your army? 2500 points of my army is going to attack, kill, and eat 1250 points of your army. The following turn, your remaining 1250 points is either going to attempt to kill my 2500 points, or my 2500 points is going to finish off your remaining army. That's why you're an auto-loss. "plenty" of Orks is a relative number.

You have 29 shoota boyz and a nob. I have 12 trukk boyz. I have a 27" assault range, you can be sure that I will get to assault you, not the other way around. You're Initiative 2, I'm initiative 3. I'll strike first. 11 Boyz (and a Nob) do 44 attacks, hit on 22 of them, wound on 11 of them, and you statistically get to save 1.76 of them. We'll round up in your favor to two, meaning you lost 9 boyz.

You have 20 boyz attacking back, getting 40 attacks, hitting on 20 of them, wounding on 6.6 of them. Statistically, I'll save 1 of them. We'll round up in your favor and down on mine. I've lost 6 boyz. Our nobs come into play at I1, and you lose 3 more, and I lose 2 more. The score is 12-8, you lose by 4, take 4 fearless saves, lose 4.

Now, I have 5 boyz and a nob left, and you have 13 Boyz and a nob left. That's presuming that you rolled statistically better than you should have, I rolled statistically worse than I should have, and that I would for some reason NOT hit you with two units of trukk boyz instead of 1.

"Plenty" or orks looks less promising now I hope? If you want to take a horrifying foot slogging list, take 150 boyz on the ground, add in 60 stormboyz, and some sort of kommandos or lootas. Tack in a squad of gretchin (29 + 2 runtherders) and you've got a foot-slogging green tide of death that ALL HAS 4+ COVER SAVES because of the nasty gretchin. That will overwhelm anyone's anti-horde abilities, AND you just negated the utility of the enemy anti-tank weaponry. Want to go mechanized? Take everyone off the ground and stick em' in trukks or battlewagons, give them a mek with a KFF to give those vehicles 4+ saves, and you've just just not only negated the utility of all their infantry weapons, but their anti-tank is only half as effective because of your KFF.

I could type and type...but I've said enough.

I told you why I thought that they were awful. You haven't picked a theme. When I look at your army list, I see a collection of units that are going to be playing on the table at the same time. That's not an army. Obviously, take what I say with a grain of salt. If you've had tremendous success with your army list(s) then continue to use them; I think the most important part is finding out what works for you and using it.

1. Ok, I am wondering if there is a language barrier or something here. I have a selection of choices, let's call them a HAMMER, and then another selection, let's call them an ANVIL. The fact is, there is an ARMY there, it just doesnt fit with your idea, which is fine, different strokes for different folks. The mounted stuff will hit them on turn 2. The walking stuff will hit them on turn 3. During tunrs 1, 2, and 3, they will be shot 56 times per turn with Loota shots. The "concept" is that it's hard to concentrate anything on the 9 dreads, 60 boys, and 28 Lootas, when the Warboss, nobs, and truk mobs are slamming into your lines on turn 2....

As for objectives in 'Ard Boyz....I'm going to be attempting to table my opponents in every round. I don't play cautiously, or for a draw...I'm not going to sit on my two objectives and try taking/holding the one in the middle. I don't care who you are, that's asking for a draw. Instead, I'm going to abandon both of my objectives, and go table my opponents. In all likelihood, they're going to have some guys on one objective, some guys on the other objective, and some to go take the middle.

2. This is a good strategy, but what happens if you are just contesting all those units and havent wiped anyone out? You don't win, you draw, when just one unit left back, even a grot unit, could win the game for you. In all likelihood, I would do pretty much the same, everything on the ground is running, and I will contest control their 2 objectives, and the one in the middle, or that would be my plan. If nothing else, I could use the lootas to make sure he didnt somehow fly over and control one of my objectives.

That means that 2500 points of my army is going to focus on 1 out of 3 elements of your army at a time. Everything I just said was obviously geared towards tactical play and not army list enhancement, but there was a point in there:

3. So, you consider that I have 3 parts, shooting, walking, and Mounted right? You won't be hitting them 1 at a time. You could hit the mounted part, or it could hit you, based on whose turn it is. Or, you can hit the walking. In both cases, the Shooting element would be backing them up, so you would be getting into it with 2/3 of the parts of my army. Not the greatest of odds for me, but not as bad as you make it out to be. Not to mention, if I go first, or 2nd, a lot of your boys will become walking squads very quickly when the Lootas get done shooting your 10 armor truks.

The problem with your army is the same as I described. You're willingly giving up your biggest strength to every opponent you play, before the game even starts. You've brought the optimal amounts of everything that an opponent has firepower to deal with. 3-4 vehicles...ok, nice. Everyone has enough lascannons, melta-guns, or railguns to deal with that. You brought a few foot-slogging units....also nice. Everyone should have a few templates in their armies; 2-3 in all likelihood at least. Plenty to annihilate your foot-slogging guys. Their anti-tank gets to fire at your tanks, their anti-troop gets to fire at your troops, and you've maximized the effectiveness of whomever you play against.

4. So, you are saying, that by splitting my army into parts, walking/riding/shooting, makes it a whole lot weaker. However, my opponent, by mixing his army into anti-tank and anti-infantry, makes his list a lot stronger? Isnt that kind of what I'm doing? The Lootas aren't anti-av14, but they are anti-light vehicle. It's a concept I am working on, and it is a work in progress.

If you play against me, you're going to run your vehicles forward with their units inside....that's say...half of your army? 2500 points of my army is going to attack, kill, and eat 1250 points of your army. The following turn, your remaining 1250 points is either going to attempt to kill my 2500 points, or my 2500 points is going to finish off your remaining army. That's why you're an auto-loss. "plenty" of Orks is a relative number.

5. Really? Thats what you think will happen? How about I play like I know whats up when I play against a KoS list, and don't rush forward to my doom and let you wipe the floor with me? How about that instead? How about, I push the Kans forward, blow up at least 2 of your vehicles, probably more with the Grotzookas. Then, let you rush whats left forward, to charge my 9 Kans? Then you will undoubtedly kill a few. Then I will counter charge with the rest of my army, after shooting up a few more of your vehicles? Somehting closer to that is how I see it playing out. But you are right, if I blindly rush forward and play like an idiot, I have no doubt you would win.

You have 29 shoota boyz and a nob. I have 12 trukk boyz. I have a 27" assault range, you can be sure that I will get to assault you, not the other way around. You're Initiative 2, I'm initiative 3. I'll strike first. 11 Boyz (and a Nob) do 44 attacks, hit on 22 of them, wound on 11 of them, and you statistically get to save 1.76 of them. We'll round up in your favor to two, meaning you lost 9 boyz.

You have 20 boyz attacking back, getting 40 attacks, hitting on 20 of them, wounding on 6.6 of them. Statistically, I'll save 1 of them. We'll round up in your favor and down on mine. I've lost 6 boyz. Our nobs come into play at I1, and you lose 3 more, and I lose 2 more. The score is 12-8, you lose by 4, take 4 fearless saves, lose 4.

Now, I have 5 boyz and a nob left, and you have 13 Boyz and a nob left. That's presuming that you rolled statistically better than you should have, I rolled statistically worse than I should have, and that I would for some reason NOT hit you with two units of trukk boyz instead of 1.

6. Couple of problems with your math here. First, your Nob will hit 2 times out of 4 attacks, not 3 statistically. Secondly, I have no shoota boyz, they are all slugga/choppa. So, instead of getting 40 attacks back with my 20 boys, i will get 60. 30 will hit, 10 wounds, of which you save 1.something or other, lets say 2, like you did. So at this point, we have both lost 8 guys. The nobs will settle it, and your Nob, by virtue of an extra attack should kill 2 on average, and my nob will kill 1.5 on average. Sometimes I will roll good and he will kill 2, sometimes bad and I will kill 1 only. So lets say I roll bad. I lose combat by 1, fail the save, and so we are done with that combat. Now, I have 20 Orks left, including Nob, and you have 4 left, including Nob. Now sure, my mob is worth around 30 points more than your mob, so I should win, bit it isn't quite as bad as you think it is apparently. Of coruse, all this assumes your Truk boys mobs have somehow charged past the 9 Kans standing between you and the walking mobs.




To be honest, I feel its a fairly stout list, with some capabilities to get into combat fast, (turn2) and some to get into combat a bit slower (turn3). I think you underestimate providing the enemy with a ton of targets. Sure he can split his fire, but that kind of plays into my plan a bit. If he splits it, there is a high chance he doesn't accomplish anything much at all. If he concentrates it, he might get something done to the section he shoots, but he certainly can't wipe it out. In the mean time, the other half will slam into him full strength.

Keep it coming though, I am not trying to be difficult, just explaining my thoughts on the issue, and in the end, you may very well convince me to change it up, but its going to take a bit more than this.



Clay

Sounds like you're comfortable with your list then, which is just fine.

Your list against mine...I'm quite comfortable with how it will turn out, and it doesn't have much to do with your kan-wall stopping me. I know this is kind of a difficult conversation to have right now because you don't know what my list looks like; unfortunately, I have a healthy dose of paranoia, and I'm afraid of posting my list because I don't want it to become a cookie-cutter list that people play and plan to beat. After 'Ard Boyz maybe.

My vision of how this would play out is a bit different. I see Ghazghkull killing a squadron of killa-kans on his own, tank-bustas killing another squadron of them on their own, leaving you a small coverage area with your kans. Meanwhile, your lootas are getting eaten up by Snikrot and his friends, and if you have trukks or battlewagons, you can bet that I'm going to completely surround them and attempt to destroy them. Anything immobilize or better works for me, because then you can't deploy out of your vehicles. And if I destroy one...you're going to fit 4-6 orks at best into the space where the trukk used to be if it exploded...if it was only destroyed, I don't think you'll get any.

Guess it depends on who goes first then....oh well, like I said, to each his own.



Cla

Well, I don't necessarily agree with it depending on who goes first because I'm equally comfortable with either, although I would PREFER to go first where possible.

Hope to see you at the finals!

I don't think you have enough substance to stand up to mech IG.

2-6 LRBT and mech'd up vet squads will leave you with nothing.

Try to get in a game against mech Guard

Yeah, thats going to be a rough matchup. However, my only other army is Daemons, and they are also a rough matchup when facing Mech IG. I will try and get a game in this week and see how it goes with Mech IG.


Clay