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So I've been messing around with Eldar here recently and keep running into the issue of troops. I've only played one game with this list but it seemed to do its job overall.

HQ:
Eldrad - 210
Avatar - 155

Elite:
Harlequins x7 - 184
-Shadowseer upgrade
-Harlequin's Kiss x7

Troops:
Dire Avengers x10 - 282
-Exarch upgrade - Dual Shuricats, Bladestorm
-Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, TL EML

Dire Avengers x10 - 282
-Exarch upgrade - Dual Shuricats, Bladestorm
-Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, TL EML

Pathfinders x5 - 120

Pathfinders x5 - 120

Heavy Support:
Wraithlord - 155
-EML
-Bright Lance

Wraithlord - 155
-EML
-Bright Lance

War Walker Squadron - 180
-War Walker - 2x Scatter Lasers
-War Walker - 2x Scatter Lasers
-War Walker - 2x Scatter Lasers


Total: 1843

Eldrad hiding in the Harlequin's squad to benefit from Veil of Tears worked out marvelously, kept him nice and safe while fortuning the Avatar, Guiding the Walkers, and either Dooming the squad the Harleys were about to attack or Fortuning them in case anyone was close enough to shoot them.

The pathfinders were a pretty big letdown, to be fair though the got hit by deep-striking flamers or had their cover save taken away (yay Markerlights). Before they died, though, one squad did pin a Crisis Suit team, so took them out of the next round. The flamers and other anti-cover weaponry kind of puts them to shame, though. For their 240pts I'm not sure what to get instead. One good unit of Storm Guardian Flamery goodness in a Serpent? Defender Guardians have never impressed me, BS3 with a single heavy weapon is less than impressive.

The War Walkers hiding in cover did exactly what I wanted them to, live long enough to take out key infantry. With Guide these guys are great, I almost wish I had a Farseer set aside just to babysit them with Fortune, too. I don't think I want to give up my Avatar just to do so, though...

My Wraithlords still bug me a bit as my only source of reliable AV13+. Even side armor of a Leman Russ is a pain on EMLs with those Wave Serpents.

Thoughts, criticisms, something I overlooked?

Looks quite good.
But keep in mind that Pathfinders have it harder to survive versus shots ignoring cover saves; IG and SM have template weapons of this kind.

I'd give the DA Serpents bright lances to remedy the AV 13/14 problem.

wustenfex wrote:I'd give the DA Serpents bright lances to remedy the AV 13/14 problem.

I'd love to do so, but can't see where to take off 30pts of something else. If I drop a War Walker I have a little wiggle room, but I have three because one always goes down first turn. Sticking them in cover helps their survivability considerably, but it's still AV10 open-topped.

See anywhere I can trim the fat, so to speak?

Warwalkers are open-topped?
I think no longer in the new codex edition.
I'm not certain as I don't have the codex with me and I don't play them.

You need 30 points for Lances. Bladestorm is rubbish. Do the math.

Elessar wrote:You need 30 points for Lances. Bladestorm is rubbish. Do the math.

In fact, I never give my Dire Avengers blade storm.
You have two units and if they work in concert and the targeted unit is doomed, then they should provide enough damage.
Moreover, you want scoring units and thus you should never let the Avengers disembark too early in the game.

Or at all, IMO. But in units of 10, you can safely get out on turn 5. Maybe.

Elessar wrote:You need 30 points for Lances. Bladestorm is rubbish. Do the math.

Bladestorm is rubbish? I can see it not being the best thing around for foot-slogging Avengers, but with a Serpent I think it's rather nice to jump out and unload 33 shots, especially on a Doomed target, then jump back in the Serpent next turn.

Elessar wrote:Or at all, IMO. But in units of 10, you can safely get out on turn 5. Maybe.

If I'm just going to leave them in the Serpent all game, may as well just go with 5-man squads and a Serpent for more points-efficiency. However, I often do have them pop out, unload on something I need dead, and get back in the Serpent. Maybe I'm playing them too aggressively at that point?

The math for bladestorm points the complete other way, sure blade storm won't do the same damage in one turn compared to ordinary shooting over two turns but you'll still do alot more damage in one turn than without bladestorm, but you pay for burst fire over one turn, being able to shoot twice at 18inches over two turns is unlikely.

a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

Not worth it, especially compared to the Lances you could be taking. It encourages you to use DAs offensively, which is a mistake. 33 shots = (assume all 5 of the Exarch's hit) 24 hits, 12 wounds on MEQs, 4 dead. Without Doom. Doom = 18 wounds, 6 dead. Still not a whole squad. Even 18 dead Ork Boyz isn't anything like enough to prevent being cut apart in CC when they Waaagh at you. Using both squads together just encourages pieplates to kill your T3, 4+ Scoring models. ALL of your T3, 4+ Scoring models. Lances >>>>>>>> Bladestorm.

EDIT: The math, for Bladestorm.

To answer your edited in question, Kirbinator, I use 3 min squads that never get out in 1750. I've never lost with this build. You don't know me or my opponent's skill levels, or how many times I've played, but feel free to search my posts on another forum that refers to something that happened 10,000 years ago, or check my Blog, in my sig, for an indication. It won't always work, but it's certainly worth a try.

but with doom and guide its 22 wounds, 7 dead, that won't wipe out a squad alone but it'll make it neglible.

and how are lances good, they are Ballistic skill 3 twinlinked.

so 3/4 will hit, then 1/3 will penetrate then only 1/3 of them will destroy a tank.

really, you have like a 8.33percent chance to destroy a av 12 or above tank with a lance.



the trick is not to consider the pure mathmatics of each individual unit, but to consider the burst power of an entire burst army unloading at once, that more than outways the return fire the Eldar will recieve, which wont be as high as it could be if you've sufficiently burst in one single turn.


Im not saying bladestorm is good on its own, you've highlighted its flaws, but it does have a place in a burst mech list, designed around putting out as much damage in one turn as possible

Sure. But until you destroy the tank, the guys inside are *kinda* invulnerable to those Shurikens...And ignore 3 Marines with a Flamer at your peril...T3 paper...

well 5th edition wound allocation means that the opponent can't choose to save his good stuff, he may very well end up with just bolter guys left etc.

I play a risky high burst army, and it works well. I see alot of people who play more defencive lists, and to them bladestorm looses its appeal.

I know, but you did 22 Wounds - 2 on Flamer, 2 on Serg, 2 on ML, 16 on grunts. Flamer probably lives. A link to your army would be appreciated.

Blade storm is not rubbish.
But in 2 of 3 cases, the missions require scoring units.
If you leave your Avengers out too early in the game, they eventually get annihilated.
Therefore, I prefer to keep them inside the transport until the endgame.

Elessar wrote:I know, but you did 22 Wounds - 2 on Flamer, 2 on Serg, 2 on ML, 16 on grunts. Flamer probably lives. A link to your army would be appreciated.

ill pm you it

So I've rewritten the list a bit, basically just the troop selection has changed.

HQ:
Eldrad - 210
Avatar - 155

Elite:
Harlequins x7 - 184
-Shadowseer upgrade
-Harlequin's Kiss x7

Troops:
Dire Avengers x5 - 205
-Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, TL Bright Lance

Dire Avengers x5 - 205
-Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, TL Bright Lance

Dire Avengers x5 - 205
-Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, TL Bright Lance

Pathfinders x8 - 192

Heavy Support:
Wraithlord - 155
-EML
-Bright Lance

Wraithlord - 155
-EML
-Bright Lance

War Walker Squadron - 180
-War Walker - 2x Scatter Lasers
-War Walker - 2x Scatter Lasers
-War Walker - 2x Scatter Lasers


Upped my Pathfinder squad a bit, should be able to put a dent in MCs and TEqs if need be, the pinning is always nice too. Now my Dire Avengers don't do anything but eat 180pts, but they do make my Lance-equipped Serpents scoring so at least there's that.

I'll probably give the original list a run again, and this modified one as well, see which one works out better for me.

I'd drop the Pathfinders as it gives you opponent a focus.
I'd add some Vypers.
They will be the least unit the enemy will target.

Not a bad idea at all, hadn't really though of Vypers. They can be amazingly annoying, and sticking them with EMLs and Shuricannons looks like it could be fun. Move 12" and still fire the blast and Cannon just fine. Or maybe the Scatter Laser and no Cannon upgrade to at least get in two S6 shots (on average) against something.

No to vypers, they are incredibly over priced. The cheapest vyper is more expensive than the cheapest land speeder, and yet has less ballistic skill, and is easier to kill (as it is open topped)

its simply over priced for what it does.

Vypers are expensive, not always very effective, and die to a harsh glare. Pathfinders are expensive, not always very effective, and die to a harsh glare that ignores cover. If deep-striking flamers, cover-ignoring blast weaponry, and vehicles weren't as prolific this wouldn't be quite so big an issue I guess since the Pathfinders would be bound to kill something worthwhile at that point.

Vypers are not so bad as you might think.
They fill gaps in the shooting schedule and they are the last to be shot if you built the army correctly.

I don't use Vypers often - they usually won't be shot last by my opponents, because they're an easy KP.

Elessar wrote:I don't use Vypers often - they usually won't be shot last by my opponents, because they're an easy KP.

Easy KP?
Not really, if you use a squadron and do not expose them to rapid fire.

A single Heavy Bolter can down a squadron of even three. Not easily, not likely, but it can happen. I want so badly to like the Vyper, but I can't do it...

Elessar wrote:A single Heavy Bolter can down a squadron of even three. Not easily, not likely, but it can happen. I want so badly to like the Vyper, but I can't do it...

Well, in the former edition, I played nine of these beauties, all with starcannons, ouch!

Vypers with eml's can be held in the backfield, too far away from heavy bolters.

What about putting in Guardian Jetbikers instead of the Pathfinders? Stick a Singing Spear and Embolden on the Warlock, make for a halfway decent annoyance unit that can threaten transports and back/side armor so long as it's early in the shooting round so I can wipe off whatever the transport was carrying?

I also thought about a Destructor Warlock instead to purge small, elite units that require cover saves; Pathfinders, Lootas and Genestealers all come to mind.

I prefer Embolden on GJB than Destructor for survivability.

HQ:
Eldrad - 210
Avatar - 155

Elite:
Harlequins x7 - 184
-Shadowseer upgrade
-Harlequin's Kiss x7

Troops:
Dire Avengers x5 - 205
-Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, TL Bright Lance

Dire Avengers x5 - 205
-Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, TL Bright Lance

Dire Avengers x5 - 190
-Wave Serpent - Spirit Stones, TL EML

Guardian Jetbikes x7 - 205
-2x Shuricannons
-Warlock upgrade - Singing Spear, Embolden

Heavy Support:
Wraithlord - 155
-EML
-Bright Lance

Wraithlord - 155
-EML
-Bright Lance

War Walker Squadron - 180
-War Walker - 2x Scatter Lasers
-War Walker - 2x Scatter Lasers
-War Walker - 2x Scatter Lasers

Total: 1844


I think the jet bikers will really work out better over all. They'll likely come in on reserves to stay alive longer, then between the singing spear and the dual Shuricannons they should be able to accost things nicely. I have to drop a bright lance to an EML on the serpents, but I think that will work out alright.

Well, looks quite good.
Jetbikes will serve you better than Pathfinders, since Pathfinders give you opponent a focus and there are several template weapons out there in the 40k universe that ignore cover saves.
I'm a bit concerned about the 5 men DA squads. Of course, they are protected by the transport but if it crashes, they might be gone.