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Need some advice at my LCG. Played a big match with my crons versus the new guard. I came down to the wire. I had him in kill points and he had me close to phaseout. After his turn the game ended and I had Necrons waiting for WBB and I was below my PO by one warrior. As the game ended he said you dont get WBB and I phaseout. Can I truly phaseout AFTER the game has ended? It vexes me

You can only phaseout at the beginning of your turn when you are at or below your phaseout number after all WBB rolls have been made.

I bolded text because those points are what you should repeat to that guard player, I'm not trying to be snarky to you.

Nope, you can only phase out during your movement phase. Any other time you do not check for phase out.

Thanks for the opinions. I havent played alot of Necron 5th ed. I will post at the gamestore and see if I cant change some minds-or bang some heads

"Phase out is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all We Will Be Back rolls have been taken"

That is the exact rule from the Necron Codex

Yes, you phased out. Phase Out is a continuous condition not a simple unique test....

Codex: Necron page 13 wrote:
PHASE OUT
If, after making all We'll Be Back rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% of less of its original number of models...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence. This gives an automatic victory to the enemy.

This means the Necron player needs to worry about phase out in the last turn as much as the first turn, if not more so, since there in no longer a chance for WBB rolls.

So, in the case of the OP, the Necron player did phase out and lost the game.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Yes, you phased out. Phase Out is a continuous condition not a simple unique test....

Codex: Necron page 13 wrote:
PHASE OUT
If, after making all We'll Be Back rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% of less of its original number of models...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence. This gives an automatic victory to the enemy.

This means the Necron player needs to worry about phase out in the last turn as much as the first turn, if not more so, since there in no longer a chance for WBB rolls.

So, in the case of the OP, the Necron player did phase out and lost the game.

Erm... whut?

You make the WBB rolls at the start of the Movement phase. If there is no Movement phase, there is never a "after making all We'll be Back rolls" time, so you do not phase out.

As such, if you are going first, and have not phased out by Turn 7, you cannot be made to phase out.

Gwar! wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Yes, you phased out. Phase Out is a continuous condition not a simple unique test....

Codex: Necron page 13 wrote:
PHASE OUT
If, after making all We'll Be Back rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% of less of its original number of models...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence. This gives an automatic victory to the enemy.

This means the Necron player needs to worry about phase out in the last turn as much as the first turn, if not more so, since there in no longer a chance for WBB rolls.

So, in the case of the OP, the Necron player did phase out and lost the game.

Erm... whut?

You make the WBB rolls at the start of the Movement phase. If there is no Movement phase, there is never a "after making all We'll be Back rolls" time, so you do not phase out.

As such, if you are going first, and have not phased out by Turn 7, you cannot be made to phase out.

was waitin for gwar to pipe in here, WAY TO BE LATE GWAR!! Anyways, yes you do not phase, as has been stated, you must be able to WBB in order to phase...

I think the people are right saying that you must be able to make the WBB roll in order to phase out.

Codex: Necron page 13 wrote: If, after making all We'll Be Back rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% of less of its original number of models...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence. This gives an automatic victory to the enemy.

This implies you only phase out AFTER you've made WBB rolls.

I see TheGreatAvatar's point though. It could be interpreted as after you've made any WBB rolls (on turn 2 for example) throughout that game meaning it is a continuous condition, that just because you don't get a WBB roll after the game is over doesn't mean the condition stops...but then again the game is over. Halp!

I'd vote that you did not phase out, but not sure.

Gwar! wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Yes, you phased out. Phase Out is a continuous condition not a simple unique test....

Codex: Necron page 13 wrote:
PHASE OUT
If, after making all We'll Be Back rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% of less of its original number of models...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence. This gives an automatic victory to the enemy.

This means the Necron player needs to worry about phase out in the last turn as much as the first turn, if not more so, since there in no longer a chance for WBB rolls.

So, in the case of the OP, the Necron player did phase out and lost the game.

Erm... whut?

You make the WBB rolls at the start of the Movement phase. If there is no Movement phase, there is never a "after making all We'll be Back rolls" time, so you do not phase out.

As such, if you are going first, and have not phased out by Turn 7, you cannot be made to phase out.

The rules do not state a particular point in time for PO to occur, just when the army has been reduced to 25% or less, after all WBB rolls have been made.

A real easy example that shows how PO can occur in the Movement phase:

A Necron player has seven damaged Warriors from a unit and makes six WBB rolls thus putting the army nine models above the PO number. The Necron player attempts to VoD a unit of Immortals but suffers a Terrible Accident off the Mishap Table. The Necron army has been reduced to at or below 25% of the original model count, after all the WBB rolls have been made, thus the army phases out.

It says "after all WWB rolls". Not all that turn, but ALL. To twist what the rule actually means further, you have only made all your WBB rolls on your last turn, so you can't actually PO before the last turn.

That makes about as much sense as saying you can PO anytime.

I actually think we can clarify this even further.

To me, the text states that Phase Out cannot happen if there are any pending WBB rolls (dead models waiting to WBB). So, it will most commonly occur during the movement phase, after the WBB rolls. So this means that in rare circumstances an army can be phased out in other phases of the game.

Here are two scenarios:

I'm two necrons away from phasing out, and I make it to my opponents shooting phase without taking casualties. Suddenly, a convenient s10 ap1 pie-plate slams on some warriors and bam. I lose three. I am now under my phase out limit, and have no WBB rolls to make. Therefore, I phase out, since no 'crons are waiting to come back to life.

In that same enemy shooting phase, he instead hits me with some bolters first, knocking me down by one necron. I lay him on his side as per usual. Then the Pie plate of doom flattens a few more necrons. I do not phase out until the start of my next movement phase, after the pending WBB roll occurs. Since I am waiting on a WBB, I can't phase out yet, even though I am permanently below my PO limit.

Actually the Necron codex clearly states that phaseout is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all Will Be Back rolls are made (pg 13 Necron Codex)

So no you did not phaseout as you can only phaseout at the beginning of your turn.

Aftersong wrote:Actually the Necron codex clearly states that phaseout is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all Will Be Back rolls are made (pg 13 Necron Codex)

So no you did not phaseout as you can only phaseout at the beginning of your turn.

Actually, I've quoted directly from the LATEST codex. You are using an earlier revision of the codex.


@Draco
Correct, all WBB rolls have been made. It doesn't state all future WBB rolls just that all WBB rolls, current tense.


@Orkestra
This is another description of what I was trying to say. You've provided yet another way a Necron army can phase out after all the WBB rolls have been made.

How are all WBB rolls made when there are Necrons laying down awaiting WBB?

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Aftersong wrote:Actually the Necron codex clearly states that phaseout is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all Will Be Back rolls are made (pg 13 Necron Codex)

So no you did not phaseout as you can only phaseout at the beginning of your turn.

Actually, I've quoted directly from the LATEST codex. You are using an earlier revision of the codex.

Funnily enough you quoted correctly, and have still failed to read the rule.

You calculate phase out after making WBB rolls. WBB rolls are made at the start of the Necron player's turn. If the Necron player doesn't get another turn they cannot lose due to phase out, regardless of how many necron models are removed from the board. The ONLY other alternative is to wait to calculate phase out entirely until the last turn of the game (which is impossible in 5th edition since we never know what turn the game will end on), since ALL would include each and every WBB roll for the entire game.

kirsanth wrote:How are all WBB rolls made when there are Necrons laying down awaiting WBB?

There can't be any damaged models after the Movement phase, thus no models will be waiting for WBB.

Lordhat wrote:
You calculate phase out after making WBB rolls. WBB rolls are made at the start of the Necron player's turn. If the Necron player doesn't get another turn they cannot lose due to phase out, regardless of how many necron models are removed from the board. The ONLY other alternative is to wait to calculate phase out entirely until the last turn of the game (which is impossible in 5th edition since we never know what turn the game will end on), since ALL would include each and every WBB roll for the entire game

The rules do not specify all future WBB rolls . The rules state after all WBB roles have been made, current tense. If a Necron player doesn't get another turn then the turn he is on contained the last of the WBB rolls.

Yes, WBB rolls are made at the start of the Necron player's turn. Everything else that follows is after the WBB rolls. If a model is damaged during the course of play AND is eligible for a WBB roll, then PO won't happen until the next turn. If there is no next turn then the damaged models are not eligible for a WBB roll, thus the WBBs made for that turn are the last ones thus PO can occur.

All future rolls would be a subsection of all rolls. It does not in anyway specify that it has to be after all currently eligible models have made their WBB rolls.

You are inserting tense where the text does not. "if, after making all WBB rolls, a necron army blah blah"

The only tense there is "making" which is certainly present tense. However, this denotes the act of rolling the dice, not which WBB roll count for "all WBB rolls". All WBB rolls in no way offers a limit as to what is included.

To me, the phrase is saying that After X, perform Y. X is WBB and Y is the PO. Thusly, after you have done your WBB is when the PO check is done. It does not read to me that PO is a continuous state that you must watch, but one that is calculated after WBB.

If there is no next turn, the game has ended.
Nothing can happen once the game ends.
No phase out, nothing.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Aftersong wrote:Actually the Necron codex clearly states that phaseout is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all Will Be Back rolls are made (pg 13 Necron Codex)

So no you did not phaseout as you can only phaseout at the beginning of your turn.

Actually, I've quoted directly from the LATEST codex. You are using an earlier revision of the codex.

Keep reading bucko the next paragraph after the one you quoted is the one I quoted, it's cut and dry phaseout only occurs at the beginning of the Necron turn.

Maybe you should quote the relevant passage you believe is "clear"?

Dracos wrote:Maybe you should quote the relevant passage you believe is "clear"?

OK

"Phaseout is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all We'll Be Back! rolls have been taken."

found on page 13 of the necron codex about 3/4 of the way down on the right

Aftersong wrote:

Dracos wrote:Maybe you should quote the relevant passage you believe is "clear"?

OK

"Phaseout is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all We'll Be Back! rolls have been taken."

found on page 13 of the necron codex about 3/4 of the way down on the right

Old codex (particularly if it's the pdf version floating around the internet).

Updated codex.....

Codex:Necron, page 13 wrote:
If, after making all We'll Be Back! rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less of its original number of models...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence.

Nothing about the start of the turn, nothing about being a single point in time, or only a single point in time. A couple examples of how a Necron army could PO in it's own Movement, Shooting, and Assault phase, let alone the opponents. Since there is no time limit associated with PO, it can happen right up until the last of the game.

So, how again is PO only checked at the start of the turn.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:So, how again is PO only checked at the start of the turn.

Because you only make WBB after the start of the turn. Also it is pretty clear that "after making all We'll Be Back! rolls" means the movement phase.

This all hinges on how we read "after". If it means immediately after, then you can only PO directly after WBB in the movement phases.

If it means anytime after, then it can really phase out anytime the conditions are met.

The wording, to me, does not seem to offer a direct indication of how to interpret it.

If it's the opponent's turn, the Necron player can't perform any action or apply any special rule unless specifically mentionned in his Codex.

"Turn sequence exceptions
There are times when a player is allowed to perform actions during their opponent's turn (fighting in an assault being the most common exemple). It may also be convenient to interrupt a player's turn because of some event occuring, like a booby trap being triggered. Whatever the reason, after the interruption, the turn sequence always continues as normal."

This is page 9, bottom right corner box in the small version of the rule book.

The Necron Codex doesn't say to PO during your opponent's turn, therefore it can only happen during the Necron's turn.

Doesn't seem like there's any room for interpretation.

Well that particular rule only says "there are times" and does not restrict or qualify that in any way. That rule alone actually proves nothing other than that some actions can occur during an opponent's turn.

Such actions that do occur in an opponent's turn are always specified as such in a Codex, though.

So the answer is:v PO happens during the Necron's turn because it doesn't specifically happen in the opponent's turn.

Therefore Necron can't PO at the end of the game.

Gwar! wrote:Because you only make WBB after the start of the turn. Also it is pretty clear that "after making all We'll Be Back! rolls" means the movement phase.

Actually, no, it doesn't. The rules DO NOT state a specific time beyond after the WBB rolls. It doesn't state right after, or only in the Movement phase, or at the beginning of the turn, just after all the WBB rolls have been made.

What is after the WBB rolls? Movement, which can result in phase out (VoDing unit of the table can do this). Shooting, pie plate from the Monolith can do nasty things. Assaulting, losing to Sweeping Advance just plain sucks. In each of these instances (and I'm sure there are others), the Necron army can be reduced to at or below 25% AFTER all the WBB rolls have been made.

As for ALL meaning now and the rest of the game, the rules don't discuss future WBB rolls, just the current one. ALL including future WBB rolls suggests a Necron army cannot be phased out in any turn but the last one, and only then at the start of the Necron player's turn. By this understanding a Necron army could not be phased out in the third turn. Obviously, this is not turn. A Necron army can be phased out in any turn, first through the last.

Since PO only happens after -all- wbb rolls are made, it means that as long as necrons die and require wbb rolls, you have to wait until those are made before checking if the necron PO.
It's not about future rolls, it's about pending rolls.
Otherwise, as soon as enough necrons die, they would PO right away, before having a chance for WBB rolls, which seems very harsh.