Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sadly, Great Avatar is right (I say sadly cos I play Necrons and hate the PO rule sometimes)...

On the Games Workshop FAQs sheet for Necrons it states...

"Q. Do damaged Warriors count as casualties if
the game ends before they are allowed a WBB
roll?
A. Yes."

Therefore, if these casualties mean the army is down to 25% or less it will phase out, as there are no more WBB rolls to be made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot the link...

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

InquisitorBob wrote:Since PO only happens after -all- wbb rolls are made, it means that as long as necrons die and require wbb rolls, you have to wait until those are made before checking if the necron PO.
It's not about future rolls, it's about pending rolls.
Otherwise, as soon as enough necrons die, they would PO right away, before having a chance for WBB rolls, which seems very harsh.

Agreed. Pending rolls implies not all the WBB rolls have been made, thus PO doesn't happen.

Lord_of_Nightmares wrote:Sadly, Great Avatar is right (I say sadly cos I play Necrons and hate the PO rule sometimes)...

On the Games Workshop FAQs sheet for Necrons it states...

"Q. Do damaged Warriors count as casualties if
the game ends before they are allowed a WBB
roll?
A. Yes."

Therefore, if these casualties mean the army is down to 25% or less it will phase out, as there are no more WBB rolls to be made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot the link...

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Reading comprehension is your friend. Casualties =/= failed WBB. It is IMPOSSIBLE to phase out after the game has ended, in much the same way it is impossible to repair a tank with a Techmarine. No further actions may occur after the end of the game, including phase out.

It says 'after', not 'at any time after' as you're insisting. Plus you can't explain how you figure out if you've made all of your WBB rolls in a random length game. You still haven't explained the huge holes in your position from the last time this came up.

InquisitorBob wrote:If there is no next turn, the game has ended.
Nothing can happen once the game ends.
No phase out, nothing.

This sounds right to me.

Ghaz wrote:It says 'after', not 'at any time after' as you're insisting. Plus you can't explain how you figure out if you've made all of your WBB rolls in a random length game. You still haven't explained the huge holes in your position from the last time this came up.

It doesn't say "immediately after" either now does it? As 0pointed out previously, the rules state "after all WBB rolls have been made" AND the army is reduced to 25% or fewer models. A condition, not a moment in time. I dare say there hasn't been any evidence to indicate after all WBB rolls is only in the Movement phase. Last time I checked, shooting, assaulting, and the opponent's turn all occur "after all WBB rolls have been made."

As to how to handle random game lengths, simple. On those turns which may lead to a follow on turn, mark the time in the turn where the Necron army would have phased out and continue playing. If there is no next turn, the Necron army phased out and the opponent is awarded the win, otherwise continue playing as normal. Really not that hard.

What huge holes in position hasn't been explained. I'd be more than happy to address any flaw in my logic.

Reading comprehension is your friend. Casualties =/= failed WBB. It is IMPOSSIBLE to phase out after the game has ended, in much the same way it is impossible to repair a tank with a Techmarine. No further actions may occur after the end of the game, including phase out.

The flaw in your logic is the game doesn't end until the condition for PO of the Necron army has been checked. Since PO is a condition of the Necron army it must be checked prior to the game ending. So, yes, damaged models that do not roll for WBB are considered dead and count toward the PO number.

Yep. Still making up your own definition that makes the word "after" mean "at any time after" when it doesn't and you still have a gaping hole in your arguments when it comes to random length games.

yes it doesnt say "immediately" but it doesn't say "current" with all either...

It however doesn't say "at any point in time the army is reduced to 25% or less models"

it simply says "After all WBB rolls are made if the army is reduced to 25% or less models phase out occurs"

after does not mean anytime after, it just means you roll for WBB then if after rolling for wbb just now just then you have 25% or less models you phase out, then you continue playing normally until you roll for wbb and check phaseout again next turn..

Lord_of_Nightmares wrote:Sadly, Great Avatar is right (I say sadly cos I play Necrons and hate the PO rule sometimes)...

On the Games Workshop FAQs sheet for Necrons it states...

"Q. Do damaged Warriors count as casualties if
the game ends before they are allowed a WBB
roll?
A. Yes."

Therefore, if these casualties mean the army is down to 25% or less it will phase out, as there are no more WBB rolls to be made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot the link...

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

I take this to mean that they are counted as casualties in the same way that broken troops are counted as casualties when the game ends. This may make them worth kill points or something, but it has no effect on Phase Out, since as many have pointed out: you can't phase out if you don't have another turn.

So.... if there is no ability to make a WBB (because it is the last turn) are the crons 'down' or casualties.....

Holy cow, is that TheGreatAvatar arguming that selfsame point? Didn't I see you on another forum making this same argument 3 years ago? Move on with life dude! Your dedication to this point of rules trivia borders on the religious.

Lordhat wrote:

Lord_of_Nightmares wrote:Sadly, Great Avatar is right (I say sadly cos I play Necrons and hate the PO rule sometimes)...

On the Games Workshop FAQs sheet for Necrons it states...

"Q. Do damaged Warriors count as casualties if
the game ends before they are allowed a WBB
roll?
A. Yes."

Therefore, if these casualties mean the army is down to 25% or less it will phase out, as there are no more WBB rolls to be made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot the link...

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Reading comprehension is your friend. Casualties =/= failed WBB. It is IMPOSSIBLE to phase out after the game has ended, in much the same way it is impossible to repair a tank with a Techmarine. No further actions may occur after the end of the game, including phase out.

As no more WBB roles would be possible, the phase out would occur in the final round after either the shooting or assualt round, when the wounded necrons would become casualties.

Its much in the same way as if necrons are killed by shooting at double their toughness and there is no ressurection orb, they will be unable to roll for WBB... if these casualties cause the necrons to fall to 25% or below they phase out. You do not continue with the necrons shooting and then the assault round, and then phase the necrons out at the start of the next turn, that would be frankly be a waste of time and a little rediculous...

So in the final round of a game, when there can not be anymore WBB rolls in future rounds, cos there are no future rounds, necrons phase out as soon as they hit 25% or below...

The phase out therefore takes place in the final round of shooting or close combat, not after the game ends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh... and if its a game with a random length, when the necrons hit 25% or below just roll to see if there will be an extra turn.

If not they phase out there and then.

If so they roll for WBB in the next turn, if they don't phase out at this point then keep playing.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Aftersong wrote:

OK

"Phaseout is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all We'll Be Back! rolls have been taken."

found on page 13 of the necron codex about 3/4 of the way down on the right

Old codex (particularly if it's the pdf version floating around the internet).

Updated codex.....

Codex:Necron, page 13 wrote:
If, after making all We'll Be Back! rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less of its original number of models...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence.

Nothing about the start of the turn, nothing about being a single point in time, or only a single point in time. A couple examples of how a Necron army could PO in it's own Movement, Shooting, and Assault phase, let alone the opponents. Since there is no time limit associated with PO, it can happen right up until the last of the game.

So, how again is PO only checked at the start of the turn.

So this is another example of how GW tried to fix something, and broke it worse. I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind this wording is because the sequence originally went as follows... "WBB -> Phase Out? -> Movement -> etc.", however this neglected to take in to account the ability to bring a squad through the portal of a Monolith for a second chance at the WBB rolls for that squad. So the ruling that I would make as a TO and would argue for as a player is that Phase Out is checked after all opportunities for WBB rolls have been taken or passed up on (by not using portal), however I would think that you wouldn't subtract from your surviving count any casualties taken during that turn (deepstrike mishaps, dangerous terrain checks, exploding vehicles rammed by a monolith [Side note: not that it would hit that hard at 6", but can Monoliths ram?]) .

TheGreatAvatar: I have two things to note:

-Based on your argument, aren't you saying that I can make my WBB rolls, decide that I want to use a monolith, transport some guys through to get extra WBB's, THEN calculate phase out, because you wait till "after all WBB rolls have been made" but their could still be some awaiting WBB through the monolith?

-Phase Out says "after all WBB rolls", but WBB says "At the start of every Necron turn", so doesn't it make it obvious that:
1) WBB is only done on Necron player turns, therefore
2) Phase Out is only done on Necron player turns


EDIT: Malecus: Yeah, Monoliths can ram, pretty funny if not totally useless

I think someone stated that WBB no longer says 'At the start of every Necron Turn'

But then again, I don't play them.

I would think that IF you can't make a WBB and the phase out test happens 'after' a WBB test (while 'after' may be inconclusive) then the phase out test doesn't happen.

Granted, it would yet another stab in the Cron face, I would say the phase out didn't happen

40kenthusiast wrote:Holy cow, is that TheGreatAvatar arguming that selfsame point? Didn't I see you on another forum making this same argument 3 years ago? Move on with life dude! Your dedication to this point of rules trivia borders on the religious.

Hmmm....and yet YOU remember....Is it me or you that should move on?....

Seriously, the Necron rules are starting to show their age. WBB is a fine rule but it just need to be brought into the 21st century. The update PO rule doesn't define an EXACT point when the Necron army phases out. This makes is difficult when you try and apply a 3E codex to the 5E core rule set.

Such as it is, the rules aren't crystal clear. It's just another example of a very simple task GW could do to alleviate a lot of grief by updating just a few rules. So it goes....

Someone should submit this to the dakkadakka FAQ questions.

It does define an exact point, you're just trying to bend the term "after all WBB rolls have been made" to mean after any other event in the game.

Eight Ball wrote:TheGreatAvatar: I have two things to note:

-Based on your argument, aren't you saying that I can make my WBB rolls, decide that I want to use a monolith, transport some guys through to get extra WBB's, THEN calculate phase out, because you wait till "after all WBB rolls have been made" but their could still be some awaiting WBB through the monolith?

-Phase Out says "after all WBB rolls", but WBB says "At the start of every Necron turn", so doesn't it make it obvious that:
1) WBB is only done on Necron player turns, therefore
2) Phase Out is only done on Necron player turns


EDIT: Malecus: Yeah, Monoliths can ram, pretty funny if not totally useless

I don't believe its correct to assume 2.

Even it it does state "At the start of every Necron turn", it specifically says that Phase Out occurs after ALL the WBB rolls are made. At the end of the game, ALL the WBB rolls have been made, no more can happen. It does NOT say WHEN phase out occurs, simply when the rolls to negate it occur. You phase out after ALL the WBB rolls have been made. At the end of the game, all WBB rolls have been made, therefore, you phase out.

Discounting for the moment, the notion that 'all' means 'all that can possibly be made in the whole game' let me see if i understand the arguments correctly:

Single Check
1. I am below my PO threshold, with 6 models awaiting WBB.
2. 4 make their rolls - I am now 3 models above my PO threshold
3. I now check my PO condition - I am not P'ingO
4. I take 5 casualties that do not allow WBB (when/however).
5. I don't PO because the condition holds until another check is made.

OR

Continual Check
1. I am below my PO threshold, with 6 models awaiting WBB.
2. 4 make their rolls - I am now 3 models above my PO threshold, and all WBB rolls have been made.
3. I take 5 casualties that do not allow WBB (when/however).
4. Have all WBB rolls still been made? Yes.
5. At that instant, I PO, since I am below my PO threshold AND all WBB rolls have been made.

Is this right? I can see merit in both sides (the former seems simpler and more game-y but the latter seems more fluffy), though which is RAW I'm still not sure.