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The Chaos space marine tier thread got me thinking and revisiting a codex. Now I am mainly a marine player and honestly when I want to play chaos i just use my marines as a renegade force and it works pretty well. Now everyone seems to besaying and baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa baaaaaa baaaaing about a codex that they think lost steam because one specific type of army list is reduceddue to the prevalence of mechanized . Ive played against chaos a good bit now and faced some different lists that are not only interesting bt a actually very comptitive. Now again my main army is Marines.



Underused Character = Fabius Bile
Yes, Everyone hates the roll of 1 it is a gamble , however when give to large squads its generally nullified, What do you mean large squads? How about a 16 man Raptor Squad w/ Mark of Tzee. Why Raptors? Squad size per and simple. Sure 40 points is alot for 10 models but beyond ten your giving your models a 5+ invuln.

So yeah lets look at this squad( PS yes i know that som do not think rapturs get fabius enchancement but where I play and how I play they use it if your gaming group doesnt allow it then o be it)

15 Raptors w/ 2 Melta gun, Mark of Tzeetch ,Aspiring Champion w/ Power fist plus enhancement by Fabius Bile. I am not going to put in exact points .
The squad all totaled comes to 379 points. Yes this may seem like a lot but not when you consider the PPM which brings it to 25.
If you roll poorly and roll tht one their fearless and you have to take a save which is a risk. Odd are you will lose a few but not enough to matter and you still hae a fearless assault squad w powerfist and melta guns running around





Anyway what unusal and interesting viable tactics do you have.

Sounds interesting. I just don't think that Bile compares to the more dangerous characters like Lucius, Abaddon, Kharn, or even Typhus (who they need to give eternal warrior like nothing else).

I don't see why you'd give the raptors Tzeentch, though. I'd definitely go with either Slaanesh or Khorne, to either strike first most of the time, or do more damage.

As a chaos player I love the death of Dual Lash crap. No one but 14 year olds ran it anyway.

I've found that a fast assault based army works pretty well given the prevalence of melta based anti tank. I run 5 raptors with a melta gun plus a lord with jump pack, LCs and meltabombs. They move up towards a pair of tanks, then he splits off in the movement phase to bomb one while the raptors shoot the other.

I think the percentage of people who claim the codex "lost steam" is not-very-high.

However, Lash being dead or not (I personally vote not simply because it's a 25 pt. upgrade on models you were likely to take anyways) does not mean that the units that everybody thought were "not as good" previously are going to suddenly stop being "not as good".

If Chaos Raptors weren't competitive before, they're not going to magically start being so. Same with Fabius. And adding them together probably won't create enough synergy to push the envelope.

sourclams wrote:If Chaos Raptors weren't competitive before, they're not going to magically start being so. Same with Fabius. And adding them together probably won't create enough synergy to push the envelope.

QFT

As for Fabius I think people forget that he is the only character in that codex that can make CSM squads fearless. Which is my main problem with giving CSM squads marks other then MoCG

He is also the cheapest HQ choice.

As for Raptors the model is so cool. I think the best bet is as you said running them in large groups. I would though give them Mark of Kharn. Otherwise they are really no better then a CSM squad in a Rhino.

Fabius Bile can't upgrade Raptors with his Enhanced Warriors rule.

I must admit I find it hilarious when people claim "Lash is Dead".

Also, Lash helps Raptors more than anyone else, with their 18" threat range. If Lash died (and how could it? It's F*ing awesome), it would hurt Raptors.

Thats how we play it is that he affects them , They're Chaos Space Marines.

Raptors are not great in small numbers ,but conversely due to their large group size they are in huge amounts, also dont discount being able to have a movement of 12 and assault range along with 3 Flamer Weapons possibly in a squad w/ a base attack of 3 w/ mark of Khorne. This pretty much devastates large ork Mobs.


I like how everyone discounts everything but one specific type of play style.


I really dont get it.

Anyway the other thing I have played against is Rhino Rush w/ Mark of Khorne.

2 Squads of Vets w/ 3 Meltas and 2 Lightning claws

2 Squads of PlagueMarines in Rhinos

2 Squads of Havocs w/ 4 Meltas in Rhinos.

It's incredibly annoying to play against. Usually he has a Obliterator squad as well.

I've also been thinking a lot about Bile lately and how enhanced marines compare with cult marines in an army built around mobile fearless troop units.

I think the insight is that, not counting the buy-in for the character, an enhanced marine is fearless, str 5 (at least) and costs 18 points base. That's cheaper than the cheapest cult marine (plain Noise Marines at 20 points each).

Then, without having to go into a lot of rules debates about what he can enhance, you can spam 10-man mechanized CSM units that are fearless.

The problem with cult marine spam is that, unless you're doing the tired old plague marine thing, it's really hard to get meltas and flamers into a cult marine list. The big advantage that enhanced marines have over cult marines is that (1) their special weapon options are better than noise marines and berzerkers and (2) they're much cheaper than plague marines (or Tsons, which I don't really consider them a viable choice).

So you can make an enhanced marine army that spams fearless MEqs with champs in rhinos with melta/flamer for under 300 points per unit.

Give em a Khorne icon and they have base 3 attacks just like berzerkers, which makes them a threat both in mid-range shooting and in HtH.

Sure Fabio is kind of dead weight compared to other fighty chaos characters, but he's the price of admission. And sure you'll lose a percentage of your marines to genetic overload, but redundancy should compensate for the losses.

Well Flava Flav, you pretty much sum up all the good arguments.

Now the cons.

- Fabius uses up an HQ slot, and his cost added to the cost of the marines he upgrades makes them about the same points as cult troops

- CSM's with Icons can lose the Icon to torrent. Also, the icon makes them more expensive and further narrows the gap between them and Cult troops.

It's really the same debate as possessed. There is nothing wrong with spamming fearless units in the Chaos dex. However, the cult troops got a good racket going, and the other options are pretty darn close.

I think the lost HQ slot is really a big deal also, since you could be using a killy DP.

Fabius is not terrible. He is a underused character imo 3 points to give someone fearless is a big deal.


Here is where people mess up is that they need to calculate their armies points before hand.

For instance, Lets say you play 1500 points and your army is 40 models. for 120 points your whole army if possible can be fearless.

Thats really awesome.


I think he is underused and I dont see why people think he can not enhance Raptors since he can enhance Possessed.

Anyway I digress.


Chaos has a lot more going for I think the problem is people forget just how basic and excellent their troops are and their ability to take a enormous amount of firepower in small squad numbers.


CSM veterans can have 5 count them 5 power weapons and infiltrate or outflank.

CSM Havocs can have 4 specials and a combiweapon.

You can have 10 man squads w/ Autocannons.

A firepower chaos list is pretty disgusting. Yes Lash is a disgusting powerful ability and incredibly useful. If we all played the same army then we would not have a very fun game now would we.

Hollismason wrote:I think he is underused and I dont see why people think he can not enhance Raptors since he can enhance Possessed.

His entry states that he may enhance "Chaos Space Marine squads". Most people interpret that to mean that only the Chaos Space Marine squad entry in the troops section.

Plague Marines have no trouble with selecting special weapons. In fact, they are better at it than normal marines, who have to take 10 men just to get a second one. Unless you want heavy bolters or something so one guy in the squad can shoot while the rest of his buddies stare at him awkwardly as he fires the squad heavy weapon every turn.

@whitedragon : We take it to mean entries that are units that state they are chaos space Marines, as in these are chaos space marines. Unfortunately it doesnt have a little section like in Greyknights where it means " chaos space marines" are these squads, but if you actually read the entry it calls them Chaos Space Marines.

Yeah their ratios of special weapons to squad size is severally out of whack in their favor.

It's why ten man squads really are not neccessary most I see is 10. Excepting Chaos Space Marine Squads.

Havocs and Veterans both have that disproportionate ratio of Specials to required Squad members. One of the players I play against uses the fabius cult set up with a bunch of minimum squads in Rhinos etc... its incredibly annoying. If he goes first then he just uses his Daemon Prince to drag a unit toward the infiltrating veterans w/ Lightning claws. Hurray first turn assault.

Yeah, I don't think that Bile is worth it in games under 2000 points. It has to be a big game to offset the buy-in and also allow for the redundancy that you need when 1/3 of your guys have problem genes.

But there should be a sweet spot up there, maybe around 2500 points, when the discount on enhanced marines versus cult marines (especially PMs) allows you to take an extra unit. Even a unit that gets reduced by the bad genetics roll can still hold an objective.

@railgun: I don't believe anybody claimed that PMs have bad weapon choices. The problem with PMs is that they cost so much. Good point about the 10-model restriction, but for CSM units you want to max them anyway to get the biggest benefit from the icon.

Finally one huge difference between the comparisons here between enhanced CSMs and possessed or raptors or havocs or chosen: enhanced CSMs are troops. Those little units of specialist elites and heavies can put out more firepower and killiness, no question. But they're a lot easier to deal with in terms of game objectives than big beefy units of fearless troops.

I agree I had to fight a 16 man enhanced Chaos Space Marine Squad squad w/ STR 6 and Mark of Tzeetch. He just stuck it on a objective and was like welp come and get it.

Yes, thank you that was enjoyable.

Anyway we can keep talking about Bile but here are some other valid entries.


What do people think of Rhino Spam?

The list I played against had Vets w/ LC, Melta guns in rhinos backed up by multiple Greater Daemons and Troops in Rhinos as well. That was mildly annoying and difficult to deal with.

I'm not sure fearless is such a great thing, when you can get rerollable ld 9 just by buying an icon(which is succeptable to torrent sure but not as much if you are dead set on using 10+ Vanilla Marine Units). Losing a combat with a fearless unit sucks when you start having to take Stupid Saves.

I'm still thinking about a mechanized armor wave. 2 land raiders, one at each end of a line, with multiple havoc launcher Rhinos and demonically possessed vindicators forming a battle line in the middle. Steam up at combat speed firing as you go and fight it out with hopefully superior units one on one.

I want to use Ahriman, but I;m confused about his staff. It obviously lets him use 3 powers a turn, but does it let him use multiple of the same power? Can he activate his force weapon multiple times if he is fighting Nobs? Can he cast Wind of Chaos 3 times in one turn?

Don't bother with the Vindis, just take more Marines with rhinos. The Havoc launcher is an incredible gun. If you can fit 6 Havoc Rhinos into a list with melta marines, you're going to be able to melt armor and kill troops. Duality.

Thing is, this list loses nothing by taking Lash. Rhinos are strong, CSM are strong, and Lash may as well get thrown on top, too.

I agree Chaos Mechanized is rather disgusting. The problem I have now though is that the havoc launcher is no longer a defensive weapon. Which is unfortunate but that is how it goes. I see a good bit of people taking combiflamers on rhinos.


The thing I like about the infiltrating vets is that you can most certainly have a turn one charge easily. Especially equiped properly. I hate infiltrating marines and so should everyone else


So lets look at the just Veteran Chaos Marines9 I know they hve another name)


The unit has infiltrate and a transport so it can outflank.

it can have 5 meltaguns.

it could have 3 and 2 ration. It can have a abnormal ration of specials to models so youcan take 7 have 5 and have 2 ablative woulds.

Er, so? Move 6", fire the launcher. There was no other option previously, so why is that a detriment? Rhinos can't move 12" and fire regardless.

True enough.

Rhino rush with chaos seems pretty easy actually.

Elites
8 man w/ 3 meltas , 1 power fist w/ rhino w/ havoc launcher

8 man w/ 3 Melta , 1 power fist w/ Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher

8 Man w/ 3 melta, 1 powerfist w/ Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher


Troop
10 man w/ 2 melta, w/ rhino havoc
10 man w/ 2 melta w/ Rhino havoc
10 man w/ 2 melta w/ rhino havoc

comes to 1300 by my count

Hollismason wrote:So lets look at the just Veteran Chaos Marines9 I know they hve another name)

Chosen. And yeah, I think they're a good unit to play around with. They can deliver some major pain.

Yeah Ill agree that they are a underused unit period.

This looks a little more mobile and deadly.

7 man w/ 4 meltas, powerfist ; Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher ; 241

Troops
10 Man w/ 1 Meltas, Autocannon w/ Rhino Havoc 220 x 2

Comes out to 1163 so points for a HQ are neccessary. Just revolves around optimal point cost for a Chose squad.

I guess its just coming up with a "optimal" point cost for the unit. Theres a lot to say on just taking the "minimum, losing one model hurts a lot so I usually put it to ablative wounds.

Base cost of 18 . Their really isnt a point to giving them a aspiring it gains you one additional attack and since all the other members can have a powerfist or power weapon, or lighting claws.

I like the 7 man w/ 4 Meltas, Powerfist w/ Rhino comes in at 241; Its good point cost overall. Seven to eight seems to be a sweet spot with the unit w/ not going over nine imo so that if you wanted you could place a Chaos lord or IC with the squad in the Rhino.

Railguns wrote:I'm not sure fearless is such a great thing, when you can get rerollable ld 9 just by buying an icon(which is succeptable to torrent sure but not as much if you are dead set on using 10+ Vanilla Marine Units). Losing a combat with a fearless unit sucks when you start having to take Stupid Saves.

This is true if you're orks or gaunts with their crappy saves, or if you're Space Marines with ATSKNF. But chaos marines are actually much better off being fearless.

Let's say, just for example, that you lose a HtH combat by 5 wounds.

If you're a regular CSM unit with the icon of glory, that means you get two chances to roll a 5 or less on two dice, or else the rest of your unit is wiped out (either by sweeping advance or, if you're below half, falling off the board because of inability to regroup). That's something like a 30% chance of surviving.

If you're fearless, roll 5 saves, lose 1 or 2 guys, and fight on, guaranteed.

Orks and nids lose a lot of guys to combat resolution because they have crap armor. SMs don't have to worry about wipeouts, so they are better off non-fearless. But Chaos Marines, who can be wiped out easily but have good armor, are better off fearless.

Good point. I tend to look at the codex as just a Variation of Codex Space Marine, so my view tends to lend toward that style of play.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Let's say, just for example, that you lose a HtH combat by 5 wounds.

If you're a regular CSM unit with the icon of glory, that means you get two chances to roll a 5 or less on two dice, or else the rest of your unit is wiped out (either by sweeping advance or, if you're below half, falling off the board because of inability to regroup). That's something like a 30% chance of surviving.

If you're fearless, roll 5 saves, lose 1 or 2 guys, and fight on, guaranteed.

Orks and nids lose a lot of guys to combat resolution because they have crap armor. SMs don't have to worry about wipeouts, so they are better off non-fearless. But Chaos Marines, who can be wiped out easily but have good armor, are better off fearless.

This is exactly why you don't want a regular CSM to be fearless.

Assumption: 10 guys to fit into a rhino and take 2 special weapons

If you lose a combat by 5 wounds, then you've got 5 guys left in the fight, at maximum (10-5). If you're fearless, you lose another 1-2 guys. So now you're in this combat, and you've got 3-4 guys left. If 10 guys managed to lose combat by 5, then it's pretty doubtful that your 3 guys will make a noticeable dent. So by staying in combat, you're just buying your opponent a turn free of shooting.

You want those guys to break and run so that you have more options on your turn.

sourclams wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Let's say, just for example, that you lose a HtH combat by 5 wounds.

If you're a regular CSM unit with the icon of glory, that means you get two chances to roll a 5 or less on two dice, or else the rest of your unit is wiped out (either by sweeping advance or, if you're below half, falling off the board because of inability to regroup). That's something like a 30% chance of surviving.

If you're fearless, roll 5 saves, lose 1 or 2 guys, and fight on, guaranteed.

Orks and nids lose a lot of guys to combat resolution because they have crap armor. SMs don't have to worry about wipeouts, so they are better off non-fearless. But Chaos Marines, who can be wiped out easily but have good armor, are better off fearless.

This is exactly why you don't want a regular CSM to be fearless.

Assumption: 10 guys to fit into a rhino and take 2 special weapons

If you lose a combat by 5 wounds, then you've got 5 guys left in the fight, at maximum (10-5). If you're fearless, you lose another 1-2 guys. So now you're in this combat, and you've got 3-4 guys left. If 10 guys managed to lose combat by 5, then it's pretty doubtful that your 3 guys will make a noticeable dent. So by staying in combat, you're just buying your opponent a turn free of shooting.

You want those guys to break and run so that you have more options on your turn.

Well, unless they are possessed, berzerkers, IoK enhanced marines (with powerfists on champs of course) and are holding an objective!

EDIT: To bad you can't make termies fearless. :(

I think you're thinking like a guard player, Sourclams

More options? To do what--shoot boltguns? Chaos is an assault army. Chaos units are nearly all better at HtH than shooting (obliterators maybe the one exception). Once you've got ahold of an enemy unit, you want to pin it in place so the hammer can charge in and finish them off in assault.

Then those last two fearless troop guys, like whitedragon points out, are sitting pretty on the objective or whatever instead of falling back off the board, denying the opponent that easy kill point.

A 15 Man squad w/ 5+ invulnerable and Fearless is pretty difficult to kick off of a objective. Large 18 man squads of Chaos Warriors with 5+ is just a incredibly effective Tar pit.

Upgrade from Fabio, Mark of Tzeetch, Aspiring w/ a powerfist. 18 models w/ 3+/5+ 3 attacks apiece fearless.

Footslog it youll make it or buy a rhino and hide them behind it with it popping smoke. Here is how that works and what I have played against it.

Rhino goes in front moves forward 12 Turns sideways, Chaos Squad Marches forward, then runs. You onlly need more than 50 % behind it in order to get the cover save. I got that gak pulled on me and the guy rolled a 6 for Fabio. He just assaulted EVERYTHING.